Time to get into the motor?

[racertb]

All:

Most of my previous posts over the last few months have dealt with my timing issues that I've been having for a while, and it appears that I may have to get into the motor to check the timing gear.  To sum it all up, the car was running yesterday, looked good on the vacuum gauge, etc.  I've been fighting this on and off now for a few months.  Each time, I can eventually get the car timed and running.  Recently, I thought the carb may be the issue...I'm sure it could be taken apart and cleaned anyway.  I started her up yesterday and listened to her run for several minutes and things looked good.  Then, the idle went down and she started idling rough and the vacuum gauge was going crazy. I shut her off for a few minutes; carb was wet with gas so I thought that was the problem and need to take it off and rebuild now.  I didn't.  I attempted to start the car and she wouldn't.  Heard a couple pops and I knew the timing was screwed up again.  Since I made some marks on the distributor and crank pulley for reference the other day after she was running good, I went to check that out first.

Once my marks were lined up, I pulled off the distributor cap to inspect the rotor. The rotor was definitely off the mark and looked to be almost 180° out from where it should be.  I've had the distributor out before and the gear was fine.  So now, going to put the carb on the back burner.  I think I've been in denial about the gear since I've always been able to get the car running again.  How could I keep getting it running if the gear was bad???

I'm quite sure I've got to get into it to check the cam gear to see if that's the problem.  It's either that or the distributor, whatever is throwing the rotor off and changing the timing.

This is disappointing since my Dad had the motor rebuilt in the '80's and you know there aren't that many miles on the car.  I found hand written receipts and notes from the build and it looks like an engine kit was purchased from Egge, but there is nothing specific regarding the cam or gear.

Anyway, I've never had to do something major on this car before, so I'll need tons of advice regarding tear down of hood, radiator and anything else to get this apart.  Trust me, I don't want to do this if I don't have to, but I don't know what else it could be at this point. I would hate to tear it down only to find out I didn't need to.   

Feeling disappointed...

[frankp]

Ted,

Before tearing into the engine, have you thoroughly inspected the pot metal distributor base?  If this is disintegrating, the shaft with the gear may be moving.  If you haven't had this off, I suggest you do for a thorough inspection.  I don't know where a replacement can be found.

Good luck,
frank

[racertb]

I will check it out, anything to consider not taking everything apart!  It looks good from my angle, but I guess I should remove carefully to inspect? 

Like I said above, it's puzzling how I can keep getting the car going and this happens.  I would think even with the possible bakelight going bad on the gear (I've checked the teeth before and didn't notice anything missing or chipped), I wouldn't be able to keep resetting the time and getting her started each time.

[chetbrz]

Ted,

If you do tear into the engine the radiator comes out pretty easily.  Take the radiator shroud off and the supports to the firewall.  Then there are two bolts on either bottom side of the radiator bolting the radiator to the chassis.  Once out you have clear access to the motor.   You can do pretty much anything without removing the engine.  Don't worry you will probably find doing this easier then what you have been doing over the past couple of months.  Take pictures it makes it easy to refer back to when putting everything back together.

PS, in past threads Old Man provided some info on what you should inspect you might want to go back and review them.  If you have a friend who is a gear head invite him over and provide beer.  Work slow and don't scratch the paint

Good luck,  Chet...

[racertb]

Lol, thanks Chet.  I was looking everything over and just getting things apart looks like half the battle.  Going to put it off until after the holidays anyway, but will first check out the distributor base housing first just to see if anything noticeable.   I always take photos to be safe.

I guess the first step is to drain the cooling system...I thought I read somewhere that the oil pan needs to come off too in order to remove the timing cover, but not sure.  I'll worry about that when I get that far into it.

[frankp]

Ted,

wanted to post picture of distributor bracket earlier, but got side tracked.  You can  see the cracks in this one and the shaft to the camshaft does not rotate freely as it should.

frank

[racertb]

Thanks Frank.  I will definitely check this out before I do anything major!

[chetbrz]

Ted,

Franks suggestion is a good place to start before you start taking apart the car.  This assembly deterioration is a common problem with the original distributor housings. 

Chet...

[imoore]

I do not believe there is anything wrong with the fibre camshaft timing gear as the engine would just never run once out of time. and playing with distributer would make no difference. So yes i agree there is something strange going on with the distributor bracket or the distributor roll pin.
My bracket is still the original and covered in oil, dirt and crud. Not going to clean is off. it probably holding it together.

Good Luck
Ian 

[racertb]

Gosh, I hope you all are right.  I haven't inspected/removed yet to check and provide feedback and photos.  I hope you're right Ian, but is there a chance the gear could be the problem and be slipping?  Isn't there a key between the steel and fiber where there could be some play?  My guess, if not the housing, is that there is some play, but allows me to time and get the car running but then slips under load (?)

I guess I'll know more when I get back to it this week...

[chetbrz]

Ted,

If you created a timing mark on the distributor and one also painted on the crank pulley to a definite reference point while the motor runs properly.  Once your problem returns there would be no doubt as to whether your distributor timing is changing.  (i.e. distributor mark and crank pulley no longer match up.)  Until you verify this everything else is speculation.   Remember the crank will make two revolutions to one revolution of the distributor.  I believe this has been mentioned before.

Chet...

[racertb]

Yes I remember and when I put the marks back to where I made them when running, I checked the rotor under the cap.  It was in a different position, almost 180° out.  So, something definitely slipped while the motor was running, as I literally heard it slowling down and retarding.  It was as if I was turning the distributor by hand retarding the timing until the motor quit.

So, I'll check the base this week and post my findings.  If that checks out, then I'll begin the tear down process.

[29plycoop]

Just a reminder when you check timming of the distributer, 1st make sure the #1 cyl is on the compression stroke with your thumb over spark plug hole for pressure then bring up on top dead center. Then check the marks you made prior. This will keep you from being on the exhaust stroke that is 180 deg out. Good luck. - Rich [t/size]

[racertb]

Thanks Rich...Yes, I've done this and had the car running well and put a vacuum gauge on it at the time.  The last I checked it a couple weeks ago I started it, actuallu drove it through the gears (the car is up on jack stands) up to about 35 mph and then backed it down and let it idle.  It was then then she just started winding down and then finally cut off in front of me.  I lined up my marks and then noticed the rotor was out.  So, something (gear, distributor housing or something else) caused the motor to fall out of time and quit.  So that's where we're at for now.

Ted

[frankp]

Ted,

As I'm a little on the slow side, I go with the folks who think it is external to the engine.  Since you are able to re-time after it goes out by re-aligning the distributor, that entire mechanism needs a thorough inspection, from the slot in the camshaft and the male mate on the bracket base shaft, to the gears.

frank