While waiting for my speedometer cable I started work on the Kingston Vacuum pump. Thanks to Russ T. Fender I had some extra parts that I am sure I will be able to get this working, I hope. I cleaned everything in the ultrasonic cleaner. Between the two Vacuum pumps I have I was able to get one top unite repaired. See Below.
(http://www.1948plymouth.info/galley/var/resizes/chetbrz/Fuel_Pump-01.jpg)
The NITROPHYL® Float Material I purchased from Restoration Supply Company. It is 2" X 3" long. I cut it down to 2.5" long. The normal width of the float is 1.5" but the 2" float works OK. I shortened the 3 inch length because of the added width of the new material. Hopefully it will maintain the proper fuel dump to the lower fuel chamber.
We'll see...
Has anybody put the electric fuel pump in line with the Vacuum pump, strictly for priming purposes. I think Tod Fitch on the POC web forum might have mentioned this some years ago. I believe you can pull gas through the pump without it being connected electrically. This way if you should run down the Vacuum fuel tank you can hit a switch and prime it easily.
Just wondering if anybody has tried this ?
With the top unit apparently ready to go I worked on the leaky canister. I soldered all the known areas in need of repair and then, I plugged the bottom hole and filled the canister with water. I still had a spot that was leaking so I emptied the canister, dried it out and soldered the remaining leaks. To stress test the canister I filled it with parts cleaner solvent and let it sit overnight in a vice with a paper towel below it. No leaks the next day so looking good.
I cleaned it once again and painted it black. After a day in the warm house to dry, I completed the assembly of the pump. I ordered a fuel shutoff valve and other stuff from Restoration Supply. When I get the parts I will install the pump in the car. I feel pretty confident that it might work. It's such a simple device I can't see it not working. If all this fails I still have my electric pump to go back to.
Wish me luck, Thanks again to Russ T. Fender for spare parts.
(http://www.1948plymouth.info/1929/images/Build/Motor20.jpg)
I'm still not crazy about having a canister of gasoline attached to the firewall hovering above the exhaust pipe, but it might be better than an electric pump pushing gas under pressure. Well I guess in 1929 this was the cutting edge of technology.
Electric fuel pumps may differ depending on the manufacturer but the electric fuel pump I had on my 30-U had a integral shut off solenoid that stopped the flow of fuel when it was off. I ran the car with it and had the wrong vacuum tank on the firewall which I bypassed. I have had other cars with vacuum tanks, not Kingstons however, and rarely needed to prime them, even after sitting for months. I am not sure it's worth installing an electric pump if the vacuum tank works as it should. I would certainly try it first without an electric fuel pump. You can always add one later if needed.
Quote from: Russ T. Fender on December 10, 2019, 01:40:35 PM
Electric fuel pumps may differ depending on the manufacturer but the electric fuel pump I had on my 30-U had a integral shut off solenoid that stopped the flow of fuel when it was off. I ran the car with it and had the wrong vacuum tank on the firewall which I bypassed. I have had other cars with vacuum tanks, not Kingstons however, and rarely needed to prime them, even after sitting for months. I am not sure it's worth installing an electric pump if the vacuum tank works as it should. I would certainly try it first without an electric fuel pump. You can always add one later if needed.
Sounds like good advise to me. Tks Chet...
On a side note Chet, if you do add an electric fuel pump, you might want to consider a shut-off switch. I re-wired mine so that it comes on when the ignition is turned on AND the fuel pump/shut-off switch is turned on as well. I originally did this to avoid flooding when my car was hard to start, but it's also a safety switch to shut off the gas for whatever the reason. For your purpose (if you added a fuel pump), being able to turn this on and off at the dash when you needed to prime your vacuum tank would make it easy. If I ever decide to rebuild my tank, I will most likely keep the pump in place regardless.
See the attached photo...I just added an additional toggle switch under the dash that looks almost identical to the toggle switch for the dash lights.
Ted
Chet_ have followed this topic with some interest as I have been thru this problem. My thoughts are as follows - I would be very concerned with an electric fuel pump in addition to the vacuum pump. Reasons are as follows - Have no idea as to if this would hinder the operation of the vacuum pump as I would expect you would put pressure reg on too. Im not sure if vacuum pump would supply adequate supply trying to suck thru two additional restrictions. Biggest concern is that if electric pump is not shut off excess gas will be in the Vacuum canister, no doubt about it - and this would in turn be sucked into oil pump via vacuum line into engine oil. Would hate to see you have to required engine for third time. On the 28 that I have worked on extensively this is no problem starting car after long periods (weeks) of not running. All we do is shutoff fuel on bottom of vacuum pump land let car run till out of gas to empty carb. To restart turn on the fuel and away it goes. The vacuum pump is supposed to have app 1 pint of fuel for reserve at all times and this does not evaporate enough to bother. Do what you think is best for you but just my thoughts.
Thanks all for the comments,
I have not experimented with any of this yet. The thought to incorporate the electric pump was solely for priming purposes and would not be routinely functional. It would only be available for priming in the event that the vacuum pump could not keep up with fuel usage. Based on the current conversation if the pump is working properly it sounds like this shouldn't be a problem. It seems to me that priming the Kingston pump could be a tedious process. It's all a question of mind over matter. If you don't mind it don't matter.
Currently I am waiting for a gas shut off valve that I ordered. The one I have leaks slightly. I like the idea of using the shutoff valve to allow the engine to drain gas from the carburetor if the car will not be used for a long period of time. Of course shutting off the valve after normal summer use also seems like a good idea.
I will hook up everything as it should be and see how it works. After all the best policy should be; "If it ain't broke don't fix it".
All interesting stuff, Chet...
PS.., I'll check if I can easily pull air through the electric pump while not connected electrically. If so I should be able to easily move gas through it. Just for research purposes. Will let you know.
Chet, really looking forward to your findings on this project. Also, which part # for the shut off valve did you order? Now you have me interested in working on my tank during the next couple months.
Thanks!
Ted, I don't know what plumbing you are using but I am using 1/8pt. Part# FLU015. Yes I know expensive.
The 1/8pt matches up with a vintage sediment bowl I am also using. Check how your plumbing will match up.
Restoration Supply Company
(http://www.1948plymouth.info/galley/var/resizes/chetbrz/ShutOffValve.JPG)
Chet- for priming the Kingston pump simply remove inlet fitting and with small funnel put 1 pint of gas into it - I have not had to do this since car was back on road- will find out regarding long term storage after this winter. I do not foresee any real problems but time will tell.... good luck and happy motoring
Quote from: rwollman on December 12, 2019, 09:11:11 PM
Chet- for priming the Kingston pump simply remove inlet fitting and with small funnel put 1 pint of gas into it - I have not had to do this since car was back on road- will find out regarding long term storage after this winter. I do not foresee any real problems but time will tell.... good luck and happy motoring
What size tubing are you using from the oil pump to the fuel canister. I'm thinking 3/16" ??
Chet- 1/8" copper tubing - that is what was there when we started the project so thats what we stuck with
Quote from: rwollman on December 15, 2019, 05:11:18 AM
Chet- 1/8" copper tubing - that is what was there when we started the project so thats what we stuck with
Where did you find fittings?
I think you are right. 3/16 would decrease the oil pressure to much. I have tubing but can't match the fittings.
My Plan:
The 3/16 inverted flair to 1/8 pt converter screws onto the old female tubing fittings. I should then be able to go from 1/8 pt to 1/8 OD copper tubing compression fitting.
This will work just fine:
(http://www.1948plymouth.info/galley/var/resizes/chetbrz/CopperTubing02.JPG)
Thanks rwollman for the quick reply. Chet...
Chet - re-used fittings that were there - fittings on copper line were of a ball design soldered on. Best I can explain is that they looked something like 1/2 compression ferrule. We just unsoldered and re soldered them on new line. I might be able to make them on lathe. Is this what you have?
I had nothing. The setup pictured in my last post will work fine. Thanks for the offer to make one.
Just trying now to make all this stuff look reasonable. Adding glass bowl and shut off valve. Starting to look a little crowded.
Looks are secondary. The key factor is a tight system with no leaks. Most of the issues with vacuum tank systems boil down to fittings that are not 100% air tight. I use the heavy yellow teflon tape on all the joints. I trim the excess off so it does not show. If you use it just be sure it starts far enough back on the threads so that it can't interfere with flow or break off and block the line.
Chet - that looks like it will work just fine - if I remember right I think fitting on oil pump vacuum was different but cant remember for sure - I f u need anything like that made I would be happy to give it a whirl for ya.
Many thanks for all the suggestions and comments. I think this job turned out OK. I know the conversion fittings will work without leaks because I used this setup on the high pressure side of the oil pump (45psi) without any leaks. The vacuum side is much less pressure. I used Teflon tape on the fuel input fitting. The threads were a little worn but the fitting tightened up nicely with the tape. :)
Here is how it looks completed:
(http://www.1948plymouth.info/1929/images/Build/Motor22.jpg)
(http://www.1948plymouth.info/1929/images/Build/Motor23.jpg)
Here is the rest:
(http://www.1948plymouth.info/1929/images/Build/Motor24.jpg)
To absorb vibration, I used the rubber fuel line rather then hard piping the carburetor. I primed with the recommended 16oz of fuel plus an additional 4oz for the glass bowel and carb. No leaks but I still need to do a few more things before I attempt to fire up this engine again. Very happy with the progress. Fingers crossed for the functionality.
Chet...
Looking good Chet! I need to do that and stop messing around with pumps and regulators.
Quote from: ski on December 16, 2019, 10:00:37 PM
Looking good Chet! I need to do that and stop messing around with pumps and regulators.
Time will tell if it works. I still need to fix a few things before I can test it. Like you I've been thinking about fixing this since I purchased the car. I think I might be able to cross it off the list.
Fingers crossed.
Chet - looks like only difference in your setup is the fuel bowl - the one I used is a top inlet. Do you have inline filter someplace. I hid it just under firewall but still accessible from under hood.
I think I'll go with what I have. The inside area of my tank was cleaned and painted a couple of years ago. It's now clean and sediment free. I do need to fix the gas gauge and gas line to the pump. Also need to hook up a modern oil gauge to check the reading of my 90 year old original gauge. I don't want to risk any engine damage due to lost pressure if I got something wrong with the fuel setup.
Well I guess the vacuum fuel pump is working. I ran the car for 3.5 hours today. Everything seems to be working as expected.
(http://www.1948plymouth.info/galley/var/resizes/chetbrz/Motor102.jpg)
When I first fired up the engine, the oil pressure wouldn't pass 20 psi so I immediately shut down and adjusted the Oil Pressure Relief Valve. The first attempt brought the pressure to 60 psi. I backed off three turns to 42 psi. I made periotic half turn adjustments to try and find a sweet spot. I settled at 35psi for slow idle and 42 psi for high rpm. It seems that once you set the high setting that is it.., no matter how fast the engine runs. As the engine ran over time the oil pressure dropped about 2 psi to stabilize at 40psi for high and 30 psi for low idle.
(http://www.1948plymouth.info/galley/var/resizes/chetbrz/Motor103.jpg)
My stock gauge reads high by approximately 10psi. I will continue to play with this but I think I found a good running setup. Obviously if I increase oil pressure I will also be increasing Vacuum to the fuel pump. It seems to work just fine at 40 psi for high and 30 psi for low idle. I will probably tweak it up another half turn to compensate for the drop off as the engine heats.
Also.., Glad to report that the rebuilt generator is working great so the next step will be fine tuning and installing the drive shaft.
Good for you, Chet. Your in business.
Nice work Chet!
Looking good Chet . Question the air cleaner you have on there is it open on bottom ( inlet end ) or is air go in slits ? Would be wondering if bottom is open and at speed would be forcing air in changing mix . I know Carter as both fin open both up and a down direction type . Depending on carb inlet . Most Mopars carb inlet left on right side of engine . Most Chevy's opposite .
Tom, The air cleaner is spiral fins. Theoretically the air is moved in a spiral motion to separate dirt. Remember I said theoretically. In any event the old car never ran this good. I just touch the starter and the car starts. Of course spark control set out to start. In for driving. Manual advance.
BTW. The carb setup is correct. So is the air cleaner.