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Vacuum Fuel Pump

Started by chetbrz, December 04, 2019, 06:46:58 PM

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chetbrz

While waiting for my speedometer cable I started work on the Kingston Vacuum pump.  Thanks to Russ T. Fender I had some extra parts that I am sure I will be able to get this working, I hope.  I cleaned everything in the ultrasonic cleaner.  Between the two Vacuum pumps I have I was able to get one top unite repaired.  See Below.



The NITROPHYL® Float Material I purchased from Restoration Supply Company.  It is 2" X 3" long.  I cut it down to 2.5" long.  The normal width of the float is 1.5" but the 2" float works OK.  I shortened the 3 inch length because of the added width of the new material.  Hopefully it will maintain the proper fuel dump to the lower fuel chamber.   

We'll see...

Has anybody put the electric fuel pump in line with the Vacuum pump, strictly for priming purposes.  I think Tod Fitch on the POC web forum might have mentioned this some years ago.  I believe you can pull gas through the pump without it being connected electrically.  This way if you should run down the Vacuum fuel tank you can hit a switch and prime it easily.

Just wondering if anybody has tried this ?
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chetbrz

With the top unit apparently ready to  go I worked on the leaky canister.   I soldered all the known areas in need of repair and then, I plugged the bottom hole and filled the canister with water.  I still had a spot that was leaking so I emptied the canister, dried it out and soldered the remaining leaks.  To stress test the canister I filled it with parts cleaner solvent and let it sit overnight in a vice with a paper towel below it.  No leaks the next day so looking good.

I cleaned it once again and painted it black.  After a day in the warm house to dry, I completed the assembly of the pump.  I ordered a fuel shutoff valve and other stuff from Restoration Supply.  When I get the parts I will install the pump in the car.  I feel pretty confident that it might work.  It's such a simple device I can't see it not working.  If all this fails I still have my electric pump to go back to.

Wish me luck, Thanks again to Russ T. Fender for spare parts.



I'm still not crazy about having a canister of gasoline attached to the firewall hovering above the exhaust pipe, but it might be better than an electric pump pushing gas under pressure.  Well I guess in 1929 this was the cutting edge of technology.

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Russ T. Fender

Electric fuel pumps may differ depending on the manufacturer but the electric fuel pump I had on my 30-U had a integral shut off solenoid that stopped the flow of fuel when it was off.  I ran the car with it and had the wrong vacuum tank on the firewall which I bypassed.  I have had other cars with vacuum tanks, not Kingstons however, and rarely needed to prime them, even after sitting for months. I am not sure it's worth installing an electric pump if the vacuum tank works as it should.   I would certainly try it first without an electric fuel pump.  You can always add one later if needed.

chetbrz

Quote from: Russ T. Fender on December 10, 2019, 01:40:35 PM
Electric fuel pumps may differ depending on the manufacturer but the electric fuel pump I had on my 30-U had a integral shut off solenoid that stopped the flow of fuel when it was off.  I ran the car with it and had the wrong vacuum tank on the firewall which I bypassed.  I have had other cars with vacuum tanks, not Kingstons however, and rarely needed to prime them, even after sitting for months. I am not sure it's worth installing an electric pump if the vacuum tank works as it should.   I would certainly try it first without an electric fuel pump.  You can always add one later if needed.

Sounds like good advise to me.  Tks Chet...
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racertb

On a side note Chet, if you do add an electric fuel pump, you might want to consider a shut-off switch.  I re-wired mine so that it comes on when the ignition is turned on AND the fuel pump/shut-off switch is turned on as well.  I originally did this to avoid flooding when my car was hard to start, but it's also a safety switch to shut off the gas for whatever the reason.  For your purpose (if you added a fuel pump), being able to turn this on and off at the dash when you needed to prime your vacuum tank would make it easy.  If I ever decide to rebuild my tank, I will most likely keep the pump in place regardless.

See the attached photo...I just added an additional toggle switch under the dash that looks almost identical to the toggle switch for the dash lights.

Ted

rwollman

Chet_ have followed this topic with some interest as I have been thru this problem.  My thoughts are as follows - I would be very concerned with an electric fuel pump in addition to the vacuum pump.  Reasons are as follows - Have no idea as to if this would hinder the operation of the vacuum pump as I would expect you would put pressure reg on too.  Im not sure if vacuum pump would supply adequate supply trying to suck thru two additional restrictions.  Biggest concern is that if electric pump is not shut off excess gas will be in the Vacuum canister, no doubt about it - and this would in turn be sucked into oil pump via vacuum line into engine oil.  Would hate to see you have to required engine for third time.  On the 28 that I have worked on extensively this is no problem starting car after long periods (weeks) of not running.  All we do is shutoff fuel on bottom of vacuum pump land let car run till out of gas to empty carb. To restart turn on the fuel and away it goes.  The vacuum pump is supposed to have app 1 pint of fuel for reserve at all times and this does not evaporate enough to bother.  Do what you think is best for you but just my thoughts. 

chetbrz

Thanks all for the comments,

I have not experimented with any of this yet.  The thought to incorporate the electric pump was solely for priming purposes and would not be routinely functional.   It would only be available for priming in the event that the vacuum pump could not keep up with fuel usage.   Based on the current conversation if the pump is working properly it sounds like this shouldn't be a problem.   It seems to me that priming the Kingston pump could be a tedious process.  It's all a question of mind over matter.  If you don't mind it don't matter. 

Currently I am waiting for a gas shut off valve that I ordered.   The one I have leaks slightly.  I like the idea of using the shutoff valve to allow the engine to drain gas from the carburetor if the car will not be used for a long period of time.  Of course shutting off the valve after normal summer use also seems like a good idea. 

I will hook up everything as it should be and see how it works.  After all the best policy should be;  "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

All interesting stuff, Chet...

PS.., I'll check if I can easily pull air through the electric pump while not connected electrically.  If so I should be able to easily move gas through it.  Just for research purposes.  Will let you know.
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racertb

Chet, really looking forward to your findings on this project.  Also, which part # for the shut off valve did you order?  Now you have me interested in working on my tank during the next couple months.

Thanks!

chetbrz

#8
Ted, I don't know what plumbing you are using but I am using 1/8pt.  Part#  FLU015.  Yes I know expensive.
The 1/8pt matches up with a vintage sediment bowl I am also using.  Check how your plumbing will match up.

Restoration Supply Company

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rwollman

Chet- for priming the Kingston pump simply remove inlet fitting and with small funnel put 1 pint of gas into it - I have not had to do this since car was back on road- will find out regarding long term storage after this winter.  I do not foresee any real problems but time will tell.... good luck and happy motoring

chetbrz

Quote from: rwollman on December 12, 2019, 09:11:11 PM
Chet- for priming the Kingston pump simply remove inlet fitting and with small funnel put 1 pint of gas into it - I have not had to do this since car was back on road- will find out regarding long term storage after this winter.  I do not foresee any real problems but time will tell.... good luck and happy motoring

What size tubing are you using from the oil pump to the fuel canister.  I'm thinking 3/16" ??
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rwollman

Chet- 1/8" copper tubing - that is what was there when we started the project so thats what we stuck with

chetbrz

#12
Quote from: rwollman on December 15, 2019, 05:11:18 AM
Chet- 1/8" copper tubing - that is what was there when we started the project so thats what we stuck with

Where did you find fittings?

I think you are right.  3/16 would decrease the oil pressure to much.  I have tubing but can't match the fittings.
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chetbrz

#13
My Plan:

The 3/16 inverted flair to 1/8 pt converter screws onto the old female tubing fittings.  I should then be able to go from 1/8 pt to 1/8 OD copper tubing compression fitting.

This will work just fine:



Thanks rwollman for the quick reply.   Chet...
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rwollman

Chet - re-used fittings that were there - fittings on copper line were of a ball design soldered on. Best I can explain is that they looked something like 1/2 compression ferrule.  We just unsoldered and re soldered them on new line.  I might be able to make them on lathe.  Is this what you have?