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My Motor Update

Started by chetbrz, October 29, 2018, 02:16:51 PM

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chetbrz

It appears that engine oil was the problem with my engine.  Builder is going to redo the bearings.  I hope they also clean out the oil ports.  Just in case of debris.

Tom, I think you posted is diagram of the oil system But I can't seem to find it.

Note from the builder:

Chet:
Pulled apart your motor the other day and 2 of the rods are badly damaged.  Definitely a lack of oil which caused the heat buildup and then the babbitt just grabs and tears.  The oil piping may not have been totally primed when it started thus causing the damage.  Will get going on the re-babbitting of the rods.
Will be in touch.
Michael










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Crazydave

Sorry about the luck. If anything, hopefully it saves someone else some pain.

Thread here. http://www.1948plymouth.info/28Q29U/index.php?topic=1260.msg8069#msg8069

Re linked below. Credit to Tom



Articifer Tom

Sorry to hear Chet . They should be able to remove plugs to access drilled channels if needed . Assume assembly lube was used . But you can pressurize system with a couple cartridges of oil from a manual suction / pump . A cheap effective way to get engine lubed without cranking . Did my , years sitting ,  truck this way before even turning it by hand . Was able to see pressure gage on dash move up with just this hand force . Found this info on AACA forum .

Articifer Tom

Chet may want to test your pressure relief valve before running . If it is froze up preventing or limiting oil going to channels could be major trouble . Not sure how to do it. would need to push flow of oil thought tube off of pump at least 50 psi ,I guess . Then adjust to 40 psi after relief to start with . Going to be PIA; but .

chetbrz

Hi Dave, Glad to hear from you.  Thanks for the reply.  How is your car coming ?

Tom,

I primed the engine well before I attempted to start it.  I don't believe you can do that type of damage to the bearings by hand cranking.  But maybe.  I do remember when I first started the engine before the pressure plate went south that the engine squealed for a moment.  I will talk with the builder to determine the best way to ensure positive oil pressure.  I could pump up pressure by hand cranking the engine.  How do you know if there is some crap in the oil ports.

I do remember that the pressure relief valve was adjusted all the way in with pressure very high.  I backed it out after the first run but I think by then the damage was done.   The max pressure should be determined by the spring tension.  Is it possible that the valve could have been placed in backwards or by being all the way in, oil flow was inhibited.

If I would have taken it apart I would know exactly how it goes back.  ??
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Articifer Tom

The hand cranking is turning the bearing dry ,  unless lubed at assembly . Pressurizing the system without any movement is what you want . This will lube all and get system primed full . There our some threads on setting up the reliefs . I forget adjustments and how parts arrange . BOI says clockwise to increase pressure , pushes spring harder to valve taking more  pressure to overcome and relieve oil down drain tube .
  Are you going with synthetic oil ?

chetbrz


Tom,

Your concerns are very relevant.  I will research the topic and discuss this with the machine shop.  It's my understanding that the builder used assembly grease.  I forgot what type of oil I was using but it was what was recommended for break in by the builder including an additive for that same purpose.

I hope the second time's the charm.  We'll know once he's finished with it. 
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rwollman

chet - have been wondering about your engine project- glad to hear it is coming along...when i started my brothers 38 after sitting 30 plus yrs I drained then refilled engine with fresh oil.  Actually overfilled by 4 qts.  since this a square stroke engine this ensures at least one throw of the rod journals were immersed in oil. let it sit for about 20 minutes then turned 180 to get the other journal in oil and let that sit to soak.  Spark plugs removed and engine spun with starter until oil pressure was established. During this process vacuum line from oil pump to fuel pump was blocked to alleviate oil aeration.  Once all was good then oil was drained and refilled to proper level and car was started.  After running for a bit then fuel pumped was re hooked.  All was good.   There are many assembly lubes out there that should help alleviate your problem as long as they are used during rebuild process.  Still think there may have been additional issues concerning your rebuild but that is between your builder and you.  Good luck - just my 2 cents worth

chetbrz

Quote from: rwollman on October 30, 2018, 07:30:51 AM
chet -  Still think there may have been additional issues concerning your rebuild but that is between your builder and you.  Good luck - just my 2 cents worth

Thanks for the input and suggestions,  I fully understand the concerns, right now my goal is to get this engine repaired and functioning properly.  The builder is as concerned as I am to accomplish this same goal.  Things happen, and can always be worst but for the most part moving closer to completion.  Fingers crossed.

Chet...
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Crazydave

Quote from: chetbrz on October 29, 2018, 08:50:43 PM
Hi Dave, Glad to hear from you.  Thanks for the reply.  How is your car coming ?

I'm around. Just been making the most of the last half of summer. Got a new toy (that is not a project) been using that and you know fall is tractor season....
Car has been at a standstill. I'm thinking my engine needs to be rebuilt or swapped for my spare (if that is in good shape). It maybe coincidence or a result of flushing with detergent oil and/or adding Lucas oil treatment, but its leaking bad now and blowing oil out of the breather after a run. Drove it around the block Sunday when rearranging my garage for the winter and there is a ton of blow by smoke in the cab. Shes pretty wore.

frankp

Chet,  sorry to hear the bad news, but sounds like the builder will get it right.  I have no pearls of wisdom for oil priming.  I don't recall following any special instructions when my engine was re-built,  maybe just dumb luck.  Good suggestions given here.  Good luck to you.

I keep telling Dave he should fire up the engine/tranny he got from hot rod Tommy to see how it runs.  Of course being younger and wiser, he wants a peek at the innards before doing so.
frank p

chetbrz

Hi Dave,

Sounds like you removed that protective coating of dirt, grime, & soot.  I myself have been doing other things besides working on the Plymouth.  The whole motor snafu and power failure to the workshop knocked the wind out of my sails but we might be coming around to clear sailing again.    The power line to the shop has been replaced and it looks like progress on the engine.  Also I have been waiting for a dock site for our boat for the last two years and finally one came available for next season.   Put two coats of bottom paint on the old girl for next season.  Just finished today.  Due to weather a two week process of removing the boat from the trailer, sanding, cleaning, and painting the bottom, winterizing the engine and putting the boat back on the trailer.  A 21 foot Chris Craft not an easy task for the wife & me to do by ourselves.  But done !!

Hi Frank,

Nice to hear from you.  Hope you are having better luck than I have.  Looks grim to have the 29 ready for summer but who knows what the fall and winter might accomplish.  Especially with power back on.   Everything is back from the plater and just waiting on the interior door handles.

Chet...
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rwollman

Chet - have been thinking about how to prime your engine with oil before starting.  If yu have the external oilvac pump this should be able to be done before installing engine back in frame.  when I did my brothers restart on his 28 after storage he wanted to check pump output.  We removed the pump, disassembled and cleaned it out and checked the vanes for wear.  Before re-installing, we plumbed it up with copper lines on intake and return  and plugged off vacuum line to fuel pump.  On output side added a gate valve to supply restriction and installed pressure gauge on port  for dash .  Spun the pump with electric drill on shaft with intake line in bucket of fresh oil and return back into bucket.   This pump would actually stall 1/4 inch drill motor.  Highest reading was 60 psi.  If you have same system I see no reason why this could not be done prior to installation into frame.  You could use either external oil supply or plumb into oil pickup in base.  Would just take a little copper line and some fittings. 

Happy Thanksgiving

chetbrz

Quote from: rwollman on November 22, 2018, 07:46:15 AM
Chet - have been thinking about how to prime your engine with oil before starting.  If yu have the external oilvac pump this should be able to be done before installing engine back in frame.  when I did my brothers restart on his 28 after storage he wanted to check pump output.  We removed the pump, disassembled and cleaned it out and checked the vanes for wear.  Before re-installing, we plumbed it up with copper lines on intake and return  and plugged off vacuum line to fuel pump.  On output side added a gate valve to supply restriction and installed pressure gauge on port  for dash .  Spun the pump with electric drill on shaft with intake line in bucket of fresh oil and return back into bucket.   This pump would actually stall 1/4 inch drill motor.  Highest reading was 60 psi.  If you have same system I see no reason why this could not be done prior to installation into frame.  You could use either external oil supply or plumb into oil pickup in base.  Would just take a little copper line and some fittings. 

Happy Thanksgiving

Thanks I was thinking about this also.  Once I get the engine back I will check it out.  Also I want to hear what the builder suggests to get this primed properly.   

Happy Turkey day !!!
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imoore

Hi chet

Suggestion for when you get the engine back. Remove the oil pump, take the cover off and fill with engine oil. while pump is off and sump removed. using a oil can, pump oil into the main feed pipe. Untill you see oil working its way past the bearings. on all journals.

ian
1928 Q tourer (Holden bodied)
Several vintage stationary engine