It appears that engine oil was the problem with my engine. Builder is going to redo the bearings. I hope they also clean out the oil ports. Just in case of debris.
Tom, I think you posted is diagram of the oil system But I can't seem to find it.
Note from the builder:
Chet:
Pulled apart your motor the other day and 2 of the rods are badly damaged. Definitely a lack of oil which caused the heat buildup and then the babbitt just grabs and tears. The oil piping may not have been totally primed when it started thus causing the damage. Will get going on the re-babbitting of the rods.
Will be in touch.
Michael
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Sorry about the luck. If anything, hopefully it saves someone else some pain.
Thread here. http://www.1948plymouth.info/28Q29U/index.php?topic=1260.msg8069#msg8069
Re linked below. Credit to Tom
(http://www.1948plymouth.info/28Q29U/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1260.0;attach=4280;image)
(http://www.1948plymouth.info/28Q29U/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1260.0;attach=4282;image)
Sorry to hear Chet . They should be able to remove plugs to access drilled channels if needed . Assume assembly lube was used . But you can pressurize system with a couple cartridges of oil from a manual suction / pump . A cheap effective way to get engine lubed without cranking . Did my , years sitting , truck this way before even turning it by hand . Was able to see pressure gage on dash move up with just this hand force . Found this info on AACA forum .
Chet may want to test your pressure relief valve before running . If it is froze up preventing or limiting oil going to channels could be major trouble . Not sure how to do it. would need to push flow of oil thought tube off of pump at least 50 psi ,I guess . Then adjust to 40 psi after relief to start with . Going to be PIA; but .
Hi Dave, Glad to hear from you. Thanks for the reply. How is your car coming ?
Tom,
I primed the engine well before I attempted to start it. I don't believe you can do that type of damage to the bearings by hand cranking. But maybe. I do remember when I first started the engine before the pressure plate went south that the engine squealed for a moment. I will talk with the builder to determine the best way to ensure positive oil pressure. I could pump up pressure by hand cranking the engine. How do you know if there is some crap in the oil ports.
I do remember that the pressure relief valve was adjusted all the way in with pressure very high. I backed it out after the first run but I think by then the damage was done. The max pressure should be determined by the spring tension. Is it possible that the valve could have been placed in backwards or by being all the way in, oil flow was inhibited.
If I would have taken it apart I would know exactly how it goes back. ??
The hand cranking is turning the bearing dry , unless lubed at assembly . Pressurizing the system without any movement is what you want . This will lube all and get system primed full . There our some threads on setting up the reliefs . I forget adjustments and how parts arrange . BOI says clockwise to increase pressure , pushes spring harder to valve taking more pressure to overcome and relieve oil down drain tube .
Are you going with synthetic oil ?
Tom,
Your concerns are very relevant. I will research the topic and discuss this with the machine shop. It's my understanding that the builder used assembly grease. I forgot what type of oil I was using but it was what was recommended for break in by the builder including an additive for that same purpose.
I hope the second time's the charm. We'll know once he's finished with it.
chet - have been wondering about your engine project- glad to hear it is coming along...when i started my brothers 38 after sitting 30 plus yrs I drained then refilled engine with fresh oil. Actually overfilled by 4 qts. since this a square stroke engine this ensures at least one throw of the rod journals were immersed in oil. let it sit for about 20 minutes then turned 180 to get the other journal in oil and let that sit to soak. Spark plugs removed and engine spun with starter until oil pressure was established. During this process vacuum line from oil pump to fuel pump was blocked to alleviate oil aeration. Once all was good then oil was drained and refilled to proper level and car was started. After running for a bit then fuel pumped was re hooked. All was good. There are many assembly lubes out there that should help alleviate your problem as long as they are used during rebuild process. Still think there may have been additional issues concerning your rebuild but that is between your builder and you. Good luck - just my 2 cents worth
Quote from: rwollman on October 30, 2018, 07:30:51 AM
chet - Still think there may have been additional issues concerning your rebuild but that is between your builder and you. Good luck - just my 2 cents worth
Thanks for the input and suggestions, I fully understand the concerns, right now my goal is to get this engine repaired and functioning properly. The builder is as concerned as I am to accomplish this same goal. Things happen, and can always be worst but for the most part moving closer to completion. Fingers crossed.
Chet...
Quote from: chetbrz on October 29, 2018, 08:50:43 PM
Hi Dave, Glad to hear from you. Thanks for the reply. How is your car coming ?
I'm around. Just been making the most of the last half of summer. Got a new toy (that is not a project) been using that and you know fall is tractor season....
Car has been at a standstill. I'm thinking my engine needs to be rebuilt or swapped for my spare (if that is in good shape). It maybe coincidence or a result of flushing with detergent oil and/or adding Lucas oil treatment, but its leaking bad now and blowing oil out of the breather after a run. Drove it around the block Sunday when rearranging my garage for the winter and there is a ton of blow by smoke in the cab. Shes pretty wore.
Chet, sorry to hear the bad news, but sounds like the builder will get it right. I have no pearls of wisdom for oil priming. I don't recall following any special instructions when my engine was re-built, maybe just dumb luck. Good suggestions given here. Good luck to you.
I keep telling Dave he should fire up the engine/tranny he got from hot rod Tommy to see how it runs. Of course being younger and wiser, he wants a peek at the innards before doing so.
Hi Dave,
Sounds like you removed that protective coating of dirt, grime, & soot. I myself have been doing other things besides working on the Plymouth. The whole motor snafu and power failure to the workshop knocked the wind out of my sails but we might be coming around to clear sailing again. The power line to the shop has been replaced and it looks like progress on the engine. Also I have been waiting for a dock site for our boat for the last two years and finally one came available for next season. Put two coats of bottom paint on the old girl for next season. Just finished today. Due to weather a two week process of removing the boat from the trailer, sanding, cleaning, and painting the bottom, winterizing the engine and putting the boat back on the trailer. A 21 foot Chris Craft not an easy task for the wife & me to do by ourselves. But done !!
Hi Frank,
Nice to hear from you. Hope you are having better luck than I have. Looks grim to have the 29 ready for summer but who knows what the fall and winter might accomplish. Especially with power back on. Everything is back from the plater and just waiting on the interior door handles.
Chet...
Chet - have been thinking about how to prime your engine with oil before starting. If yu have the external oilvac pump this should be able to be done before installing engine back in frame. when I did my brothers restart on his 28 after storage he wanted to check pump output. We removed the pump, disassembled and cleaned it out and checked the vanes for wear. Before re-installing, we plumbed it up with copper lines on intake and return and plugged off vacuum line to fuel pump. On output side added a gate valve to supply restriction and installed pressure gauge on port for dash . Spun the pump with electric drill on shaft with intake line in bucket of fresh oil and return back into bucket. This pump would actually stall 1/4 inch drill motor. Highest reading was 60 psi. If you have same system I see no reason why this could not be done prior to installation into frame. You could use either external oil supply or plumb into oil pickup in base. Would just take a little copper line and some fittings.
Happy Thanksgiving
Quote from: rwollman on November 22, 2018, 07:46:15 AM
Chet - have been thinking about how to prime your engine with oil before starting. If yu have the external oilvac pump this should be able to be done before installing engine back in frame. when I did my brothers restart on his 28 after storage he wanted to check pump output. We removed the pump, disassembled and cleaned it out and checked the vanes for wear. Before re-installing, we plumbed it up with copper lines on intake and return and plugged off vacuum line to fuel pump. On output side added a gate valve to supply restriction and installed pressure gauge on port for dash . Spun the pump with electric drill on shaft with intake line in bucket of fresh oil and return back into bucket. This pump would actually stall 1/4 inch drill motor. Highest reading was 60 psi. If you have same system I see no reason why this could not be done prior to installation into frame. You could use either external oil supply or plumb into oil pickup in base. Would just take a little copper line and some fittings.
Happy Thanksgiving
Thanks I was thinking about this also. Once I get the engine back I will check it out. Also I want to hear what the builder suggests to get this primed properly.
Happy Turkey day !!!
Hi chet
Suggestion for when you get the engine back. Remove the oil pump, take the cover off and fill with engine oil. while pump is off and sump removed. using a oil can, pump oil into the main feed pipe. Untill you see oil working its way past the bearings. on all journals.
ian
Quote from: imoore on November 26, 2018, 02:18:24 AM
Hi chet
Suggestion for when you get the engine back. Remove the oil pump, take the cover off and fill with engine oil. while pump is off and sump removed. using a oil can, pump oil into the main feed pipe. Untill you see oil working its way past the bearings. on all journals.
ian
Thanks for the tip. It's a good suggestion. Chet...
Are all the bearings Babbit? Rods and mains? I haven't taken a peek at my spare yet and want to be certain.
Reason I ask, mine is shot. Ever increasing puking oil on the floor even after just running it. (not driving) Always smoked a ton with any sustained RPM.
I am going to pay a visit to a nearby engine builder soon for a tractor engine project. See how it goes, I like the location, highly rated. I'll ask if he touches that stuff or can refer me to a shop that does.
Dave,
The Plymouth Instruction Book May 1929 states that the Main Bearings are a special interchangeable type and the connecting rods are manufactured to exact size and are interchangeable without fitting, having bearings of Babbitt, spun into place by centrifugal process.
My rebuilder said that he used inserts for the mains and ground the rods for Babbitt bearings. Outside of this information I have little to add. Vintage motor rebuilding is not something I have any experience with?
Chet...
Thanks. I can see the look in his face when I ask....
Ballpark idea of cost?
Quote from: Crazydave on December 19, 2018, 10:27:12 AM
Thanks. I can see the look in his face when I ask....
Ballpark idea of cost?
I sent you an email.
Thank you.
Years ago (~1979?) I had my 29U bearings rebabbitted by a local truck shop. I drove it very little for many years while I was in the Army. In 2003 the car threw a rod bearing. When I disassembled the engine, I discovered that the main bearings had been Groved wrong. Instead of channeling oil to the port in the crank shaft to lube the rod bearings, the groves in the main bearings where channeling the oil away from the port. It was a wonder the rods received any oil at all. Fortunately the mains were not damaged, and based on the advice of an experienced Babbitt shop in South Dakota ( unfortunately now closed) I added additional groves in the Babbitt to channel the oil properly. I only had to have that one rod bearing rebabbitted.
Also of note, check to see if the engine rebuilder left the small hole open in the rod bearings to allow oil to spray on the cylinder walls. You can see where the hole should be by looking at the outside of the rod bearing. Be sure Babbitt is not plugging the hole.
To prime my engines oil ports, I took a new plastic pressure spray tank, added a pressure gage, then installed a long clear plastic tube with a flare fitting. I removed the copper U shapped line from the engine oil pump, and attached the plastic hose to the engine oil port, then put about three quarts of oil in the plastic tank, pressurized it to about 25 lbs, and let er rip. That was plenty enough to force oil to all the lines and move the oil gage.
I next reinstalled the U shopped copper line to the oil pump and engine, then removed the oil pump cover and put into the pump a little Lucas oil, and reinstalled the pump.
Then I removed all four spark plugs, sqerted in a little oil for the cylinders, and turned over the engine with the starter ( ignition off) and spun the engine until pressure showed on the gage. That way I know the oil pump is primed. Then reinstall the plugs and start the engine.
Regarding the oil pressure, when adjusting the oil pressure relief valve after an oil pump or engine rebuild, it is best to start at a low psi and work upwards. First remove the pressure relief valve and be sure it is clean and the plunger moves freely in when pushed in. Then reinstall, leaving the cover off. Have a screw driver in hand, and have an assistant start the engine. Have the assistant call out the oil pressure to you while you adjust the pressure at idle to between 15-20 lbs. Then install the locking pin but leave the cover off for now. Next go for a drive and note the pressure at 30-40 mph. If it is below 30 psi, stop and turn the screw clockwise one half turn, insert the locking pin, and drive it some more at 30-40 mph. Repeat this until you get approx 30-40 psi at operating speed. Then reinsert the locking pin and cover on the pressure relief valve. (The book states 35-40 psi for operating pressure at normal driving speeds, but I run mine at 30-35). Several things to note, (1) the car can operate fine at only 20-25 psi at 30-45 mph. (2) Operating at pressures above 50+ psi can quickly damage your pump gear or worse, the cam gear ( I learned this by experience). If the pressure is above 40 psi, I recommend stopping immediately and adjusting the relief valve down (cunterclockwise). (3) lastly, at hot idle the oil pressure can drop as low as ~15 psi with no problems.
Nice explanation John. Many thanks I'll inquire. Chet