I am finally getting ready to reinstall the engine in my 30-U after a complete rebuild and will be trying to use my Kingston vacuum tank instead of the electric fuel pump I used previously. Since the vacuum tank runs off the oil pump, as opposed to drawing vacuum from the manifold, I would think that some type of check valve needs to be placed in the vacuum line to keep gas from getting into the oil pump. Is there a check valve in the vacuum tank itself and if not has anyone added one in the line? If so, what did you use? Thanks.
To my knowledge, there is no check valve in the system. It happened to me when the Kingston malfunctioned, but it has been very reliable. frank
Thanks Frank. I wonder if putting a check valve in line would affect the operation of the vacuum tank. It certainly would protect against the possible malfunction of the vacuum tank which is after all over 90 years old.
Russ,
If the corks are secured on the brass shaft, there shouldn't be a problem. Of course, if a check valve works, it would be a preventive measure and provide peace of mind. As they say, your oil gauge is your friend. If the oil is diluted with gas, the pressure drops. That's how I knew I had a problem. One whiff of the dipstick told me what it was. frank
My vacuum tank was supposed to have been totally rebuilt so I guess I will try it without a check valve and keep my eye on the oil pressure gauge. Thanks.
Russ, you should be good to go then, if soldering is good when corks replaced. Other folks have had problem with valve seat at inner tank. I've never experienced and can't describe any symptoms. I also sealed the inside of outer tank as it was starting to weep around the bottom.
Look forward to hearing about your success. frank
Russ,
You can't add a check valve without a major redesign of the pump. The main thing is that Fuel line and vacuum line is sized correctly with no leaks. With mine 6 consecutive hours of engine idling caused my pump to over fill. This makes sense since actual driving would use more gas that just running idle.
When you first install the pump stay aware of your oil pressure. Your car will probably take longer to pump up oil pressure with the tank installed. If there are any problems with the vacuum line you may have problems with oil pressure. Just an FYI...
Chet...
Thanks for the heads up. I plan to start up initially with a simple gravity fuel feed to get oil pressure up and then connect the vacuum tank. I will block the vacuum line to the tank for initial start up. Did you have any trouble picking up a prime with the oil pump? I am debating packing the pump with vaseline or at least filling it with some 90 wt. steam cylinder oil.
Initially I had lots of trouble but for other reasons. Not connecting the vacuum pump for the initial startup of your rebuilt engine is wise. Make sure the vacuum line is plugged. This will bring up your oil pressure quicker actually gives an additional 5psi. Some Vaseline or heavy oil in the oil pump to startup is a good idea.
Good luck, Chet
I don't know if this is useful is is from1928 Chrysler
Chrysler used a Stewart tank. The low end must have used the cheaper Kingston. There is a big difference. A lot of Plymouths were retrofitted for the Stewart units over the years.
How are things going. Have you fired the engine up.
Let us know. Chet
Have not fired up yet and have run into a few other issues I am trying to sort through. The pressure plate and clutch disc I have appear to be be the same as shown for the PA but my car is an early 30-U. I am almost positive they are the ones I removed from the car about 15 years ago but I also found what looks like the clutch disc and pressure plate for a 30-U in my stash of parts. Are they interchangeable? The surface of the pressure plate for the PA is in much better shape than the other one and I would prefer to go that route if possible. Test fitting the PA pressure plate and clutch disc, it looks like everything lines up correctly and should work. My other question concerns the universal joint discs. I had five NOS Fibroid discs that I got at Hersey many years ago and if I recall correctly 3 go on the rear and 2 go by the transmission but when I installed them it seemed like there was room for a third disc up front as tightening the bolts distorts the discs so the are pulling toward the rear. Is that correct or am I short one disc? I can't find any information on this in any of my reference material. Once I get these issues sorted out I will be ready for a test start. The rebuilt engine is quite stiff and I doubt the starter will be up to the task so I plan to tow start the first time. I plan to tow in high gear with the switch off and hopefully get some oil pressure up in the process before I turn on the ignition.i
Russ,
I'm not sure about the interchangeability of the pressure plates. 28,29,30 to PA - Check the parts book. If it bolts up it might work but check it carefully prior to starting the motor.
As far as the Universal disks are concerned there are a number of threads on this topic. Try a search in the General Discussion Category on "Universal Disks" or "Universal Joints" BTW... You are correct, three disks in the back an two by the transmission.
Below is a link to a long thread on the topic of disks. From 2012
http://www.1948plymouth.info/28Q29U/index.php?topic=611.msg3332#msg3332 (http://www.1948plymouth.info/28Q29U/index.php?topic=611.msg3332#msg3332)
Rich (29PlyCoop) posted this in 2009
Here are the dimensions of the discs that fit my 29 Plymouth "U",(also used on 1928, 1929, 1930) hope this helps. The discs measure 6 in. in diameter, each of the 6 holes are 2 1/4 in. apart and the center hole is 2 1/8 in. in diameter and 5/16 in. thick. The 1929 Plymouth takes 5 of these discs per car on the Plymouths, 2 at the transmission and 3 at the rear-end. Good luck with your "Q" HAPPY MOTORING!!!! Rich
If your car is jacked up on the frame with the rear axle hanging, you might see some severe pulling of the disks. Just a thought.
The motor. Why is the engine so tight. Was it put back together with assembly grease. Can you hand crank it ? Just wondering
I can crank with the plugs out and with difficulty under compression. The engine was put together using assembly grease and I believe rod and main clearances were set at 1.5 thousands. Maybe the problem is that I am 75 with a bad back! In any event the starter is even older than I am and I have almost always towed fresh rebuilds to start on my restorations, most of which have been on non-starter cars. Never had a problem doing it and it makes things a lot easier on the back.
As far as the clutch and pressure plate are concerned I can't find anything about them being interchangeable. I was hoping someone either has a period junkie interchange manual or has actually used the PA set up on a 30-U. Sure looks like it should work. I set the pressure plates together and the bolt holes align perfectly and the thickness is the same. The throw out bearing looks like it will ride correctly on the arms so I don't know what else I can do at this point.
There is two style pressure plates for the Q,U, and 30u Thin arms and thick arms. The PA has a 4th style.., cover three arms. Look at the pictures on pages 80, 81 and 82 of the Master Parts List or post a picture of the pressure plate. The clutch plate is the same for Q to PB.
Chet...
BTW... "I can crank with the plugs out and with difficulty under compression. " Sounds normal to me.
Thanks Chet. I can clearly see the difference from the master parts list and I am sure I have the 30-U thick arm pressure plate and the three arm PA version. What I don't know is if the two are interchangeable. The more I think about it the more certain I am that they are interchangeable because the PA pressure plate was with the rest of the parts that were stored when I took the car apart but it sure would be nice to have it confirmed before I set everything up and find out otherwise. My car spent over 40 years on the road as a daily driver so I am sure it had clutch work done on more than one occasion. My assumption is that at some point the pressure plate was replaced by someone who knew that the PA pressure plate was a viable alternative, at least I hope so!
I guess I will find out soon enough and will post the results. Wouldn't hurt to have another possible option.
I am very interested in what you are doing and if it is possible it would be nice to see both pressure plates. If you could take a picture I would appreciate it. If you can't post it you could email it to me.
Thanks Chet
I will get a picture tomorrow if I can. One is installed and the other is in my storage space. For what it's worth, I just checked some old copies of the Plymouth Four Cylinder Owners Club that I have as I recalled that they did some interchange research in the early '60's. What I found shows that the Borg and Beck 9A1 clutch assembly and pressure plate can be used for PA, PB and 30-U. I am not sure what that really proves but it certainly suggests that the factory Plymouth pressure plates and clutch discs for the same years should be interchangeable. At the time the interchange was done you could still get the 9A1 unit over the counter at any auto parts store. Wish I'd bought a few when I had the chance.
Well I think I have solved my problem. When I went to take a picture of what I have in the car I noticed a faint marking that I had not paid attention to when putting in the clutch and pressure plate. I scuffed the area and discovered that I have a Borg and Beck 9A1 set up. I am now confident that I put the right set up in and that this set up is usable for the 30-U, PA and PB Plymouths as the interchange done by the Plymouth Four Cylinder Owners Club indicates. Chet, I will try to attach a picture of what I have in the car and get a picture of the other set up when I get over to my storage space. I think you will see that the Borg and Beck unit is almost identical to the Plymouth factory clutch set up.
Great thanks.
Very interesting stuff.
Here is the clutch set that is factory issue for the 30-U
Thanks, that was what I was expecting to see. :)
I wonder if there is a modern replacement for the Borg and Beck 9A1. I wonder what other cars used this setup in the 60's.
Thanks again.
That clutch was used by lots of cars in the early 30' but the last one I can cross reference with is 1934. Studebaker Dictator and International C1 and D1. both used it through 1934. When I said you could still get them in the 60's I did not mean any cars of the 60's were using that clutch. I meant that they were still stocking that part and rebuilding them for cars from the 30's. I remember when a friend of mine who worked in an auto parts store in the mid 60's called me to warn me that the new parts catalogs they had just gotten in no longer went back to 1930 and that if I needed anything for my car I better get it before they could no longer find the parts references. Fortunately, that forced me to get a new radiator, tie rod ends and 2 complete gasket sets as I had been nursing my leaky old radiator and using anti-shimmy springs to compensate for the worn tie rod ends. Unfortunately, that "new" radiator and replacement tie rod ends are now older than the ones I replaced but I did just get to use one of the gasket set for the engine rebuild.
I will try to do some research and see if there is a modern substitute for the 9A1 but I doubt it. It may however be possible to get them rebuilt and there should be a reasonable number of them out there as I know at least a dozen different cars used them.