28Q29U Plymouth Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: racertb on April 11, 2014, 10:13:11 PM

Title: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 11, 2014, 10:13:11 PM
Here are latest observations and symptoms:

Car turns over, distributor turns, etc.  Tried two sets of points and condensers.

First set, car turns over, but sounds like starter getting hung up every few revolutions.  Take off distributor cap, car turns over and no weird starter hang up issue.  Intermittent spark of coil wire jumping to head bolt when checking for spark.

Second set of points/condenser, no starter hang up sound every few revs, engine turns over fine, but no spark from coil wire.

I've tried setting both point sets at both .18 and .20 and it doesn't seem to matter.  At this point, not concerned about timing until I get consistent spark. 

Running out of ideas, but I'm thinking its got to be electrical and a hopefully simple fix.

Thoughts??  Going crazy here. 

Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 11, 2014, 11:04:42 PM
I'm wondering if the small wire going to the side of the distributor that attaches next to the condenser wire is not insulated correctly and grounding out affecting the points and causing the no spark condition?

How should that be attached so this isn't an issue?  Anyone ever deal with this?

Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: imoore on April 12, 2014, 02:56:36 AM
If the points are funtioning properly the amp meter should fluctuate when cranking. This means current is flowing through primary circuit and points are opening and closing.

Now a way to test the points is with a test light. So what u do is put the clamp on a good metal connection then put the tester on the distributor connection. When the point are closed the light will be off. When open the light should glow. If u can do this with cranking the engine to make sure it is a continued on-off flash. If the light is allows on it means the distributor or points are not earthed. If the light is allways off it means your have a short to ground at the points or terminal connection.
I would also make sure the HT side of the coil is either conneced to ground or to a spare spark plug. This will stop the coil from burning out.
This is also a good method to set your ignition timing. Called static timing.
The spark from my 6v ignition will jump a good 30mm

I hope i have explained it correctly. It is something i just do and don't think about.
Ian
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: Old Man on April 12, 2014, 09:12:28 AM
"starter motor getting hung up every few revolutions" This could be be kick back from the firing taking place too far before top dead center (TDC). So this could point to the timing being way out. Also account for the "back firing" out the intake.
   Trying to make sure you have a good spark is OK but if it's way off the correct timing point it will be useless. When testing for spark in open air,I have noticed in the past that I seem to be missing sparks also. This seems to be normal but I have no explanation for it. I only ever watched to see if I had spark across a spark plug ,clamped to the cylinder head, and left it at that. But in any case if the distributor is turning, a spark would happen every time the points open and close, you just wouldn't know if the spark is on time or not.
  I keep a can of ether around for troubleshooting this kind of problem. A spray down the throat of the carb will make any engine run at least for a few revs. If you have never used the stuff before BE CAREFUL. It's explosive. If you have a remote starter cable and are around the carb when the ether fires way before TDC,you can get a cheap brush cut. But the ether takes the fuel out of the equation. If you get a stable engine for a few seconds until the ether burns off, then you know it's fuel. If you can't even fire the ether then it's spark. If the engine fires with the ether,you can also pour A SMALL AMOUNT of gasoline down the carb along with a snort of ether and see if the engine runs on that. With the added gas down the carb the engine will run for several seconds. (This is a good way to get a hesitant engine that's been stored for a while to start and draw gasoline up from the gas tank. I do it all the time. But BE CAREFUL and always have a dry chemical fire extinquisher handy. A charged garden hose is OK but it won't put out spilled gasoline. The gas will float on the water and continue to burn. I've never had a problem as I was a trained firefighter for 4 years as a young man and have great respect for how people burn up things. You'd be amazed.)
  Somewhere along the line it should occur to you what has gone wrong. A further point on the gasoline. Most people do not know you actually do not need a carb on the manifold for an engine to start and run. All other things being right, a small amount of gasoline poured down the open intake manifold will fire and run for a few secionds. However be careful as the engine will try to run at full throttle. But I put this in to show that gasoline feed is the easiest to troubleshoot.               
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: chetbrz on April 12, 2014, 09:24:57 AM
Racertb,

Ian & Old Man have given you some good advice.  Based on your statements in both emails here is my take.
Your statement "felt a slight loss of power then some misfiring and then a few loud bangs/backfire, but not from all from the exhaust."  Based on other statements this leads me to believe that your timing had changed dramatically and was shifting from before and after TDC.  Many things can cause these symptoms but the advice to check the distributor time gears seemed real good to me.

Your next statement "Tried to restart several times, finally started and ran for a few seconds then shut off again.  Some more backfire."  Backfiring through the exhaust is the plug firing with the exhaust valve open and likewise backfire through the carb is the plug firing with the intake valve open. 

When your engine is cranking and appears to slow instead of start you are firing the plug to much in advance of TDC.
In these combined instances I would suspect a catastrophic time issue which could be timing chain or distributor.  In the case of our old motors the distributor timing gears should be checked.  (As Old Man Mentioned)

The other issues with poor point timing or a shorted distributor coil may have been caused by the trouble shooting process.  Ian troubleshooting process is a good one to follow.

My 2 cents
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 12, 2014, 09:29:35 AM
Update.   I can open and close the points rapidly to assimilate the distributor turning like the car is running.  I am now getting spark consistently from the coil wire to a head bolt (easy to observe).

The issues seem to be I have to open the points REALLY wide (rapid manner described above) to get the spark to fire from the coil wire.  By wide I'm talking 1/8" wide.  But, I am getting spark so I'm assuming the coil is good.

The other thing I noticed with the points is that it also looks like the spring/bend (curved part) is sparking/shorting against the inside wall of the distributor housing.

I believe this is the issue and because I only get the consistent spark when opening the points really wide is because its pulling the spring/arm away from the inside wall.

I've got other things to do today, so will focus more on this later.  Anyone ever deal with something like this before?

I hope I'm on the right track here and am convinced this is a simple electrical issue.

Thoughts???
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 12, 2014, 09:52:10 AM
Thanks for the replies, but see my update above to see if that changes anything.

Also, fuel feed is not an issue and carb is loaded with fuel, as it probably flooded last night.  This is because the car has an electric fuel pump and was not too concerned last night since I was only checking for spark.  However, this morning I disconnected the lead to the pump so I could continue checking for spark (see update above) without the fuel pump running when I have the key on.

You guys are a great deal of help and more knowledgeable than me, and I think it is timing with some points shorting out which could be what caused the initial problem.  I hope the above further narrows down the diagnosis.

I once had an old Ford Torino that started cutting in and out and found out the hard way that it was a loose negative side coil wire that was not properly connected/secured.  That major running issue was a simple electrical connection.

I hope this Plymouth issue is a simple issue to fix as well.  Before I did my major tune up, everything had run fine for many years.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: chetbrz on April 12, 2014, 12:36:18 PM
racertb,

All you can do now is fix the things that you can see which are obviously a problem than go from there.  As soon as the points open the ckt should fire.  The point gap only needs to be open long enough to allow the coil to discharge fully and to ensure that the points stay closed long enough to recharge the coil.  The differences between .016 and .018 are functionally negligible.

Chet...
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: imoore on April 12, 2014, 05:22:06 PM
My dustributor now that you mentioned the points spring did have a piece of insulating paper between the spring and housing.
A coil should fire evertime the points break open  if they don't it would obviously cause a missfire. All it takes is a very fine hair gap. Not even noticeable. For a spark to occur. All the points gap does is to charge and disscharge the coil for the best possible spark the next time round. 

Also back to setting the timing make sure when u are setting its static timing (engine off) that you remove all backlash from the distributor. By turning the shaft towards the stopper not against the advance mechanism. This will remove any slack in the gears ect. You also need to make sure you only rotate the engine clockwise. If you do go backwards go past the point you want to set it,  then bring it forwards again. This will remove any slack in the cam shaft gears.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: frankp on April 12, 2014, 06:20:49 PM
Ian,  You are correct about the paper or insulating material between the body and the spring.  I checked a spare and it is there.  frank
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 12, 2014, 07:50:13 PM
I've never static timed before, but it doesn't sound complicated, however I have a few questions.

Are there visible timing marks on these cars that should be lined up or on the gears themself?  I don't plan on taking the timing gear cover off.

The Instruction Book mentions making sure #4 cylinder is TDC and everything else I see mentions #1 cylinder

Whichever one it is, how do you verify?  The way the pistons are offset from where the plug holes are, a tool or whatever won't exactly work to check.  Should the exhaust stroke air blowing out be used to find tdc?

Hopefully I'm not over thinking this too much,  just trying to verify how off the timing is.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: frankp on April 12, 2014, 09:47:05 PM
There are no timing marks visible.  There are marks on the camshaft and crankshaft gear to synchronize the pistons and valves, not the distributor.

#4 piston is nearest the firewall.  On the head there is a screw that allows access to the top of #4.  I put a coat hanger wire to determine TDC (top dead center).  The book says #4 should be going up on the exhaust stroke and stopped .050" before TDC.

Now the distributor is set to fire #1 plug.

My Sixth Edition Instruction Book gives more details on this set-up, page 40.  Pg 39 - 40 gives trouble shooting methods.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 12, 2014, 10:12:51 PM
Thanks Frank!  I never knew about the access screw.  This makes sense with the manual.  I'm not sure what edition manual I have... I'm first going to fix my points.  I looked at them a few minutes ago and the breaker arm is against the inner wall on the distributor.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: frankp on April 12, 2014, 11:13:06 PM
Glad to help.  A note on that insulation strip.  On my spare, it has slipped downward and is not between the spring and the body the way it should be.  As I think about it, seems the last time I put in points, care had to be taken to get this correct.  It tended to move as the fastening nut was tightened.  You'll get it figured out.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: imoore on April 13, 2014, 02:13:18 AM
Sorry frank but the 28 engine does not have that access hole. The way i do it is by removing cyl1 plug. Put your finger over the hole and rotate engine over untill compression is felt. Then With a torch look at top of piston untill it is at the top.
Crankshaft to piston orientation is cyls 1and 4 being pairs and 2 and 3 being pairs
By pairs i mean both will be at the top or bottom at same time just on different stroke.  As you can see the firing order is 1,3,4,2. You will notice that only one of the pairs will fire at a time.

A 6cyl as pairs of 1 and 6, 2 and 5, 3 and 4. With a firing order of 153624. 
A little off track but give u an idea

Ian
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 13, 2014, 08:37:39 AM
OK, need to clarify.  When I determine the piston is at tdc and at the top (whether observed or felt) as described, how do I know if it's on the exhaust stroke or compression stroke? 
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: frankp on April 13, 2014, 09:54:19 AM
My memory is hazy, but believe I took off the tappet cover plate to determine valve position.  Removing the spark plugs in 1 and 4, may show valve position also.  I'm sure some one as done more recently and will give better guidance.

Ian,  no need to be sorry.  I appreciate your knowledge on all things 28Q.  I can only discuss 29U as that is what I have and what the 1929 manual says. 
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 13, 2014, 03:51:50 PM
Took out the distributor (remembering it's position), cleaned it up, reset points.  I made sure the spring is not touching and even put a thin piece of Gorilla tape on the inside of the housing just as an added security measure.  Everything looks good at least.  Reinstalled the distributor.

I may use Ian's method of using the #1 plug instead of #4.  That screw on top of the motor over #4 will not budge! 
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: imoore on April 13, 2014, 04:06:58 PM
Hang on lol i think i have been wrong my self. For some reason i thought racerb had a 28. Think im getting confused with all the restoration questions.
Seeing how you tried to undo the small screw u must have a 29. At least everthing else is the same.

My mistake.

Ian
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: frankp on April 13, 2014, 05:14:20 PM
Not too surprised screw is being a tough cookie.  Might try old standbys to loosen corrosion.  I wish I had a magic elixir to recommend.  Good thing Ian provided additional info.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 13, 2014, 07:48:53 PM
If I can't get the screw out, I could still use Ian's method (similar to what I've read online) using the #4 cylinder, I'm assuming.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 14, 2014, 03:45:51 PM
Just to be clear, #4 cylinder needs to be on the compression stroke (air forced out) to determine that it's TDC?
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: imoore on April 14, 2014, 04:55:20 PM
Thats if you want to find tdc on compression stroke for cyl 4. Thats why i recommend using cyl 1. Stops any confusion.

If u have valve cover off you can tell when cyl 1 is at tdc on compression stroke by looking at cyl 4 valve. When the exhaust valve close and immediately inlet starts to open thats tdc on cyl 1. This is the same method used when setting valve clearance.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: frankp on April 14, 2014, 05:07:21 PM
I read the exhaust stroke for #4.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 14, 2014, 06:20:21 PM
Thanks Frank, I saw that to...so either exhaust stroke on #4 (per manual), or compression on #1?  That's the way I'm understanding now.  I may pull of the valve cover off or use the air method (compression) on #1 like In does.    Let me know if I'm wrong here.  Thanks again guys.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: frankp on April 14, 2014, 08:44:11 PM
A I see it, you're right on track.

As Ian explained, #4 is approaching TDC on exhaust cycle and its pair, #1, is simultaneously approaching TDC on the compression cycle when the #1 plug will fire.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 14, 2014, 08:52:25 PM
Great,  I'll keep you all posted.  It might be a few days until I get back too it.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: 29plycoop on April 14, 2014, 09:09:39 PM
Just a thought that you might check to make sure the distributor gear pin is not sheared or worn. That would make a condition that the timming would be changing all the time. Good luck. Rich
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 14, 2014, 09:45:28 PM
Hey 29plycoop, I had the distributor out yesterday and looked over everything including the gear.  No wear on gear or pin that was noticeable.  Everything seemed in good shape with no play.

At this point, I think I just need to find tdc and get the distributor in the right position to get the timing right. I'm hoping that's all I need to do!

Thanks!
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on April 22, 2014, 10:48:05 PM
Quick update.  Removed the plugs, turned the motor over using the crank with my finger over the #1 plug hole.  It was easy to feel the compression stroke forcing the air against my finger.  I did this several times to get the feel and make sure I got it at TDC. 

I then made sure the rotor button was lined up with where the #1 terminal/plug wire in the cap is so the #1 plug is set to fire.  I had to remove and reinstall  the distributor to do this, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to get everything in line.  I'm going to check the points with a test light and adjust the distributor as necessary.

I believe I'll be ready to start the car at this point.  Keeping my fingers crossed.

Did I miss anything?
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: 29UJohn on May 15, 2014, 09:13:43 PM
I am sure some will disagree with me, but when you set the timing with a light by the instruction book, the spark will need to be advanced a little to run smoothly.  This is because the fuel in 1929 was only about 70 octane.  With even today's lowest octane, the spark will have to be advanced somewhat to run smoothly because the higher octane fuel "burns" slower.    Years ago when I first got my car I set the timing by the manual and it would barely run.  An "old timer" showed me how to set it "by ear" and got the engine ticking along smoothly. 

Otherwise, I would carefully follow the steps in the manual on pages 39-40 and review the corrective measures on pages 69-70.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on May 16, 2014, 01:35:27 PM
Hey John:

Are you suggesting this advance by distributor adjustment or by acutually doing this with setting TDC slightly more advanced than what's called for?

I'm assuming the just dialing the distributor and setting it slightly more advanced than one might do (?)

Also, I've been out of town a lot lately, so I hope to get the car going this weekend.  I basically started over (again), found TDC (I hope), got the rotor pointing in the right direction, verified firing order of the plug wires, and even put in new points/condensor (again).  I'm just ready to go out and try again and hopefully get her back on the road.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: Old Man on May 16, 2014, 05:44:35 PM
I have a sinking feeling something is terribly wrong with this engine. You obviously have set the engine up correctly several times by now. It should have started even if only to run roughly. I wish I were there. There's just not a lot more that needs to be done to get one of these old engines going. They are basically a lawnmower engine times 4. Even a balky engine will fart and start and run for a couple of revs with a snort of ether up the snout. I have a terrible feeling the mechanical time between the camshaft and the crankshaft is out. It then will not matter if you time from TDC on #1 or not. The camshaft is not setting the valves to their right spots and setting the rotor and the spark to start at that point, TDC #1, will be meaningless as well. I'm kinda lost in the thread. Have you checked the fibre gear behind the cover on the front of the engine? I think you may have to take it off and check and make sure the 2 dots are adjacent to each other. If not that will be your problem. 
  However because it's a side valve engine,the valves will not "hit" the pistons like they do on a modern overhead engine when the timing belt breaks. Which is what stripping the fibre gear running the camshaft off the crankshaft in these old engine is the equivalent. So no damage done. The quickest way of finding out if this is the problem is to remove the front valve galley cover. Put #1 piston at TDC and it should have both it's valves closed. The lifters should be on the back,or downside, of their cams. If then in turning the engine by hand using the fan blades,spark plugs out, the exhaust valve should be opened on it's cam after reaching the bottom of the cylinder,then close as the piston rises to the top, and then the intake valve should open on it's cam on the next down stroke. Then they close once again as the piston rises on the compression stroke to TDC once again. As we used to say in the Forces "Suck,squeeze,bang,blow".         
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: 29UJohn on May 16, 2014, 10:06:26 PM
Ted, I agree with Old Man.  When you said a while back that the engine, "made that grinding kind of noise every couple of revolutions", that concerns me.  With gas, air, compression and spark somewhat close, the engine should start even if very rough.  As previously recommended, I would remove the valve cover and plugs and have someone turn the engine through few revolutions with the hand crank while observing the valves.  Then I would check the fiber timing gear for any lost teeth.  I believe there is a  rectangular hole in the valve compartment that will allow you to see the fiber timing gear.  Have someone slowly turn the crank while you check the teeth.

To answer your timing question, yes, "..just dialing the distributor and setting it slightly more advanced than one might do." That would be counter-clockwise looking from above.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on May 17, 2014, 11:24:36 AM
Thanks Old Man and John.   I'll look into that.  I have a 30U block that happened to have the valve cover off and I saw the rectangular hole John is referring too.   I want to check for spark one more time at the plugs as started to last night because it didn't look consistent, even though I'm getting a good spark from the coil wire and everything (cap, rotor, wires, etc.) is new.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on May 17, 2014, 11:29:35 AM
Also, distributor turns clockwise (looking down from above) smoothly, points opening and closing "properly", etc.  Everything APPEARS to be functioning the right way.   Again, I need to feel better about the spark getting to the plugs before I do anything else.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: racertb on May 25, 2014, 09:42:17 PM
Got the valve cover off and everything looks real clean.  Got to check out all the cam gear teeth tomorrow...the teeth I've seen so far look good.  Will look at the rest at least once tomorrow the look at valve positioning.  I'll post the results and any questions I have as soon as I can.
Title: Re: Old Gal - Still won't start
Post by: test100 on May 26, 2014, 08:13:56 AM
Sorry you are having so much trouble getting your engine started.  If nothing turns up and with all the time you have spent would you consider popping the head to ensure TDP and the correct operation of the engine timing.

Chet...