28Q29U Plymouth Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kimmc on September 20, 2012, 07:03:50 AM

Title: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on September 20, 2012, 07:03:50 AM
I am getting ready to pull the engine from my '29U.  Will it come out easily without removing the steering column and box?  I want to keep the steering in for now so I can move the car around.  Thanks for your help.  Kim Mc
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: imoore on September 21, 2012, 12:25:05 PM
I have never removed the engine yet but it may be possible to twist the engine past the steering box. You would have to remove the gearbox first.

Just a suggestion

Ian
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: frankp on September 21, 2012, 04:01:05 PM
Kim,  I don't recall removing steering column, but always removed radiator.  As Ian suggested, I always removed the tranny also.  Once you have the clutch pedal off, it's all downhill.  Good luck!  frank
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on September 21, 2012, 04:34:40 PM
Thanks Ian and Frank.  I've got the radiator out and nearly everything else off or disconnected.  The driveshaft is off and the tranny unbolted but not out yet.  Still have the pedals and master cylinder to remove.  I was hoping I could do what Ian suggested and just lift and twist the engine so the left rear motor mount clears the steering column and box.  I will let you know how the rest of this adventure turns out.  Thanks again guys.  Kim Mc
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on September 22, 2012, 05:23:03 AM
Hey Ian and Frank.  Well, today I disconnected every thing else, including the clutch and brake pedals.  The clutch pedal would not come off the shaft because apparently some pinhead had beat on the end of it making it sort of like a mushroom.  I had to work at it with a mill bastard file (which pretty much describes the job too) for about an hour before I could slide the pedals off the shaft.  All that remains to unbolt are the the front and rear motor mounts....and I have to drop the transmission which I can not get to move at all.  I thought it would be easy since the tranny is about the size of a cantaloupe!  But it won't budge.  I'm going to have to do some reading and research to see if I am missing something.  The wife is off with her girl friends for the weekend so I can work on the car without any "honey do's" getting in the way of my "fun"!  Hope to have both the engine and trans out this weekend.  Will keep you posted and will post some pics too.  Thanks again for responding.  Kim Mc
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on September 23, 2012, 12:38:45 AM
Hi Ian and Frank.  Well, the tranny is out; bit of a fight but the good guys won.  Tomorrow the engine comes out.  Then I'll start the project of degreasing and cleaning all the parts and chassis.  Should be able to get the engine to the mechanic/rebuilder this week.  This big stuff goes fast...I'm dreading the body work.  Pics attached.
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: imoore on September 23, 2012, 12:15:48 PM
Good to see you are making progress. The looks like a nice project. You will have to keep us posted on the restoration. If you need any info help just ask.

What you getting done to engine?

Ian
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on September 24, 2012, 04:51:51 PM
Hi Ian.  Going to try this again.  I wrote a long response with attachments yesterday with attachments.  But because the attachments exceeded 1000KB I tried to delete one and ended up deleting the entire reply.  I just had to walk away for a while.  So I am trying again today.  The engine is out!  Managed it by myself and did just what you suggested.  I lifted the front of the engine higher than the bell housing end and just brought out the right side first then was able to move the left rear motor mount around the steering column and box.  I will probably remove the steering column at some point anyhow so I will re-install the engine with that out of the way.  I don't want to accidentally damage the Clum switch at the bottom of the column.  I am going to have the engine completely gone through and will have done whatever it needs done.  I was the last one to drive the car when I was 14 back in 1957!  So, it's been waiting in storage all these years for me.  It was originally purchased by my great grandfather and was given by my grandparents to me.  I plan to return it to as near its original condition as I can get.   Have to run.  Will keep you posted on my progress.  Thanks again.  Kim Mc 
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: Doug on September 24, 2012, 08:43:12 PM
It's a little late. But is you had taken the shift tower off and the hand brake. The transmission would have came out with the engine. Just saves all that working under the car.
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: chetbrz on September 24, 2012, 10:52:23 PM
Nice project and a really nice car to work with.  From what I can see the body work should be a breeze.   Great Job !!!  Sorry you had issues with the picture posting.   

ChetÖ
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on September 24, 2012, 11:19:59 PM
Hey guys.  I thought about removing the hand brake and shift tower but there was about 1/2 inch of dirt and grease on everything so I just decided to drop the trans and deal with the gunk after it was out.  It wasn't a bad job.  Just had to find the right swear word to get the trans unstuck from the bell housing!  :)  The engine has been degreased and it's loaded in the back of my truck (pic attached) on it's way to the mechanic in about an hour.  Yahoo!  Thanks for your interest and help.  I will continue to post my progress.  And I'm sure I will need further help from those with more experience.  Thanks.  Kim Mc
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: imoore on September 25, 2012, 10:45:44 AM
Well done. It might be an idea to check the engine mounts. The front one in particular.
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on September 25, 2012, 04:36:38 PM
Picture attached.  What do you think....should I replace it? ;D
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: imoore on September 26, 2012, 10:31:56 AM
Nice, looks like mine before i replaced it

Ian
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: SDGlenn on September 26, 2012, 05:53:36 PM
I think if you get some good e-poxy, and are real careful putting it together in the position it was in originally then get some bailing wire and  wrap around it, pull the bailing wire real tight so you can get a good grip on it and throw it in the next slough you come to, you might be better off. ;)
SD Glenn
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: frankp on September 26, 2012, 10:53:26 PM
Kim,  Great job!  Brings back old memories.  I believe the distributor housing is pot metal, so have the shop be careful if removing it.  frank
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on September 27, 2012, 05:25:05 AM
I was thinking I would just bolt down the front engine mount directly to the frame like the rear motor mounts.  What good is 1 piece of rubber like a hockey puck going to do?  ;D  Thanks for suggestions; I like those.  I will remind the mechanic about the distributor...he's real savvy about old engines, but I always worry about those delicate parts.  Took a couple of days off working on the car.  A friend called me and said he had picked up a '29U complete engine in AZ that he thought I would want.  I went to San Francisco to pick it up; turned out it was a '30 Dodge truck engine I think (different than the '29U engine).  I didn't buy it so if anyone is interested I have a couple of pictures and the motor number (UT22672).  Tomorrow I will continue to degrease all the parts I pulled off then prime them before I put them on the shelf for their eventual return to the car.  I'll continue to post stuff so stay tuned.  Thanks again.  Kim Mc
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on September 27, 2012, 05:59:12 AM
Here's a little history about my '29 U business coupe.  It was purchased new by my great grandfather in Omaha NE (i believe).  It spent its first 25 years in the vicinity of Stanton NE.  The car was handed down to my grand parents (residents of Stanton) and they gave the car to me when I was about 12 (1954).  I drove it all over our farm hunting and fishing.  My dad would let me drive it to the Platte River about 1/2 mi away through the fields on farm roads; I only had to cross one little used county gravel road.  Much of the dirt and mud still on the car I probably put there!  When I turned 14 I was able to get a "learners permit" that allowed me to drive from our farm to and from school and school functions.  That's when the car got painted purple and gold, the school colors.  Early in my sophomore year the family moved to the Texas gulf coast.  The car was last driven by me in 1956, the year of our move.  The car went into storage.  It remained in NE until the 90's when it was moved to Colorado .  Early in 2010 I brought the car to California (where I've lived since 1965).  It has been a long time goal of mine to restore this family heirloom.  Before I did anything to the car I was able to get Tod Fitch and Bob Semichy to look at the car and give me some advice.  Because all the wood in the car remains in excellent condition, they recommended that I not do a "frame-off" restoration.  I am taking their advice.  My goal is to bring the car back to it's "original" look and for it to be a nice restoration but not something that is only for show.  My enjoyment is working on the car, learning all about it, and being able to drive it once again.  I'm the 4th generation in the family to "own" the coupe.  It next goes to my daughter and her husband and eventually to my grandson (2 yo) who already loves cars!  I am having great fun with this project.  Attached is a picture of the car right after I got it here from Colorado. 
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: imoore on September 27, 2012, 12:11:40 PM
A very nice car you have. You are very lucky to have all the history of the vehicle. That info would look great on the display board. It would be an amazing feeling to be back behind the wheel once completed again. 

Ian
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: frankp on September 27, 2012, 04:59:11 PM
That is wonderful to have the history and the memories with it.  You will have fun and frustration.  Your goal, like mine, restore and drive it.  frank
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: 1930 on September 29, 2012, 03:07:54 AM
I was thinking I would just bolt down the front engine mount directly to the frame like the rear motor mounts.  What good is 1 piece of rubber like a hockey puck going to do?  ;D  Thanks for suggestions; I like those.  I will remind the mechanic about the distributor...he's real savvy about old engines, but I always worry about those delicate parts.  Took a couple of days off working on the car.  A friend called me and said he had picked up a '29U complete engine in AZ that he thought I would want.  I went to San Francisco to pick it up; turned out it was a '30 Dodge truck engine I think (different than the '29U engine).  I didn't buy it so if anyone is interested I have a couple of pictures and the motor number (UT22672).  Tomorrow I will continue to degrease all the parts I pulled off then prime them before I put them on the shelf for their eventual return to the car.  I'll continue to post stuff so stay tuned.  Thanks again.  Kim Mc
Hello, would it be possible to send some pictures and info to jhason2@yahoo.com Thanks
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on September 29, 2012, 04:34:02 AM
Hi all.  Did a little work today but not as much as I had planned.  I pulled the shield off below the radiator that hides the frame and axel...(I'll have to check to see what that piece is called).  It needs some work.  I removed the rear bumper and worked on degreasing the splash shields from the engine bay.  That gunk is practically welded on.  I am still trying to remove one stabilizer rod that extends from the radiator through the firewall.  That's a challenging job for just one guy....I need at least one arm that is much longer than it currently is to reach under the dash to the inside of the firewall and to the engine side of the firewall at the same time.  Some pictures attached.
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: frankp on September 29, 2012, 09:17:46 PM
Kim,  I believe the metal below radiator and fenders is called a splash pan.   It took me years to find one in decent shape.  I see the gas tank is off, good decision.  Mine never was and the price was paid.  Thanks for your pictures documenting your progress.  frank
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on September 30, 2012, 02:21:11 AM
Hi Frank.  Thanks for the correct terminology for the splash pan.  Mine needs a little re-shaping; that may be a good piece to start practicing "body work" on.  I need a little instruction first.  Yes, the gas tank was taken to a vendor that said they would take the dents out and coat it inside and out.  I was working out-of-state at the time.  I checked in a couple of times with them (they had my radiator, and radiator shell as well).  When I dropped in (two different times when I was home) they didn't know where my stuff was or if any work had been done.  This was supposedly a radiator shop that worked on vintage car stuff.  After 6 months I called them and said I was going to be in town and wanted to come by and talk to the owner; my stuff still wasn't done!  I went in and picked up all my parts after they searched for a while.  The fuel tank had been coated but no dents removed; they just coated right over them.  I was so @$#$% mad that I just took all my stuff and left.  I haven't decided what to do about the fuel tank; just leave it or have it redone (more $$$).  A lesson learned.  For my next post I am going to diagram the transmission-side fabric U-joint with bolts and washers as I found them.  I'm pretty sure these were original assembly.  I saw some discussion on the forum about the discs and "waffle" washers and I thought some of the forum members would be interested in how that was put together.  Anyhow, thanks for your responses.  I like talking with others that have plowed this same ground...the experience of "moss-backs" is very helpful.  Regards, Kim
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on September 30, 2012, 05:42:10 AM
I am attaching a sketch of how the front disk U-joint was assembled on my car.  I am nearly certain that these discs were original factory assembly.  The nuts of all 6 bolts were towards the rear of the car.  The "waffle" washers I think most will recognize.  There was also 1 combination washer on each bolt; it was waffled on one side and flat on the other.  The flat side was nearest the nut on the trans spyder and nearest the bolt head on the driveshaft spyder.  I presume this arrangement allows better distribution of the pressure against the disks when tightening the bolts.  I hope the diagram makes sense and it will be useful to some.  Happy wrenching...  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: chetbrz on October 01, 2012, 03:23:54 AM
I am attaching a sketch of how the front disk U-joint was assembled on my car.  I am nearly certain that these discs were original factory assembly.  The nuts of all 6 bolts were towards the rear of the car.  The "waffle" washers I think most will recognize.  There was also 1 combination washer on each bolt; it was waffled on one side and flat on the other.  The flat side was nearest the nut on the trans spyder and nearest the bolt head on the driveshaft spyder.  I presume this arrangement allows better distribution of the pressure against the disks when tightening the bolts.  I hope the diagram makes sense and it will be useful to some.  Happy wrenching...  Kim

Kim if you don't mind I would liked to post this info in the tech section.
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 01, 2012, 04:50:43 AM
Chet; sure, that's fine with me.  Information sharing is what this site is all about, right?  Kim Mc
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 02, 2012, 03:01:11 AM
Well, made a little progress today.  Things always take longer to do than I expect.  Removed everything from the firewall and from behind the dash today.  Next I plan to take lots of pictures of the old original interior.  It's pretty ratty (literally, in some places where they gnawed the seats) so I expect it will go but I'll record it and save the materials, at least for a while.  So, here's a pic of the firewall sans all the wires and cables that pass through it; I also included a diagram of the firewall wiring and cable layout for use later.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 08, 2012, 06:31:09 AM
Well, I spent some time the last couple of days continuing to remove parts, labeling and bagging lots of screws and bolts, and taking many pictures.  This afternoon I removed the old upholstered kick panels, door panels, garnish molding, and glass from the driver's side door.  All went pretty wells.  Some big old mouse nests behind the kick panels...pretty ugly.  I found a little dry rot on a floor board beside the bottom corner of the passenger door but after some poking with an ice pick, I don't think it is serious enough to require removal of the entire piece.  We'll see.  On the driver's side, a small wood piece inside the door that covers the rubber strap that limits the distance the door can open will have to be fabricated.  But it won't be a big job; I used to do quite a bit of wood working as a hobby.  I am posting a picture of the passenger door with its panels still intact (but worn), the driver's door with everything removed, and an upholster's tack removing tool that was invaluable to remove the many tacks without destroying the old fabric-covered panels.  I wanted to keep those in tact in order that I can eventually deliver them to an upholster so he can use them to see what was done on the original car.  Oh, and I found an old 1919 wheat sheave penny...maybe lost by my great grandfather?  I'll keep it to display with his picture when I finally take the car out for its first Plymouth Club meet.  Kim Mc
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 10, 2012, 05:32:10 AM
Well, for those of you checking on my progress I am continuing to disassemble the car.  The interior parts and upholstery are mostly out.  I spend a lot of time labeling and bagging parts and pieces.  Also I am taking lots of pictures and making sketches when I think a sketch will show something better than a photo.  I hope this will make things easier when the time comes to re-assemble the car.  Today I discovered some significant dry rot in the wood of the right rear corner beneath the fabric top.  Also, the wood piece across the top front of the cab may also need to be replaced but I don't have that completely exposed yet.  Looks like a shade-tree repair to the top was done "down on the farm".  Check out the picture of the burlap used beneath the top membrane.
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: SDGlenn on October 10, 2012, 03:52:20 PM
Doing a great job Kim, great pictures also.  Be sure to keep the burlap, If the American Pickers show up they will offer you probable 100 dollars each. lol Enjoy the narrative also, I need that to understand how this is going.
Take care
SD Glenn

Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 10, 2012, 05:12:20 PM
Thanks Glenn.  I appreciate the feedback and enjoy the humor.  The comments I get regarding my "posts" are part of the fun of this project and keep me plugging along.  Thanks for taking the time to post a note.  On my way out for another day.  They must have used at least a couple of boxes of tacks on that interior and top!  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: chetbrz on October 10, 2012, 06:31:41 PM

Kim,

Could you post more pictures of the wood framing & floor of your car.

Many thanks,  Chet...
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 10, 2012, 08:33:48 PM
Hi Chet.  Sure I can do that.  Is there something that you are especially interested in?  There's a lot of wood and specially machined joints!  I want to be sure to get those parts that you want.  It may be a day or two as the floor of the old girl is pretty cluttered right now as I continue the disassembly.  I will post some pictures later today of the top wood structure; I removed the burlap this morning and took pictures.  I hope I can salvage most of the wood structure and only have to build a few pieces.  Later.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: chetbrz on October 10, 2012, 11:04:16 PM
Kim

As far as the burlap is concerned I love the ďCattle FeedĒ logo.  Thatís Great !!!.  Actually I plan on restoring my 29 as a retirement project.  I know my car looks fine in the pictures but the wood framing is pretty rotten in that when I drive.., the car shakes, rattles, and attempts to roll.  Since I havenít removed any of the interior I donít quite know how badly the car was been molested.  I assume it was by the tong and grove floor that is presently in my bucket of bolts along with the occasional drywall screw.   Any and all photos of the original construction would be extremely helpful for my quest.  My goal is for a museum quality restoration.  Probably wonít come close but everyone needs a goal, thatís mine.  You could just email the pictures if you want.  This way I would have the benefit of a full quality photo and you wouldnít have to photo shop them.  That is if you donít mind.   I am mostly interested in the floor & roof.

Tks,  ChetÖ
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 11, 2012, 01:25:34 AM
Well, my frame is original...some dry rot but not too much.  I can send you all the pictures you want however mine is a coupe, not a sedan.  Yours is probably similar construction, just longer (and even more wood!).  I am sending 2 pics here taken just a couple of hours ago.  The 3rd pic will have to follow in a separate reply as the third picture would put me over the 1000KB limit.  Go to go.  My wife is making me take some time away from my project!
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 11, 2012, 01:28:46 AM
Here's the 3rd photo.  All the floor boards laid out.  I will do a sketch of each with measurements if that will help.  Let me know what else you want.  Talk to you later.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: 1930 on October 11, 2012, 01:56:18 AM
Nice job, keep up the great work, I am enjoying following this thread
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: chetbrz on October 11, 2012, 02:10:14 AM
Kim,

Please don't add any work to your project time on my account.  The pictures are great.  I agree with Jason great thread.

Thanks,  Chet...
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: ALS30U on October 11, 2012, 02:16:01 AM
    I just wanted to send a note to let you know how much I'm enjoying your post . Keep up the good work and thanks foe allowing us to watch as you proceed.
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 11, 2012, 08:52:43 AM
Chet; it's not much extra work to get the pictures you want while I have it all open.  So just let me know; I'll be glad to get the detail pictures you want.

Al; I enjoy posting the pictures and getting feedback from forum members.  This is all part of the fun for me.  I've benefitted from the posts of others on this forum; I hope some will benefit from my adventures with the restoration of my car.

I am putting up a couple of more pictures of the top's wood structure.  You all are lucky that there is a 1000 KB size limit on posted pictures otherwise I'd be putting up lots more.  The first pic shows the top from above the left back corner of the cab (behind the driver) and the second show a broken support bow (there are 3 breaks like this...probably caused by high school friends piling all over the car on several occasions way back when I was just a lad).  I think these can be glued and clamped; I also plan to reinforce each top bow by gluing strips of wood along either side of each bow.  It can't hurt and will probably help the old wood a little.  And I have some other pieces that I will have to manufacture replacement pieces....but that's another post.  Thanks again for the feedback.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: 29roadster on October 11, 2012, 02:25:41 PM
Kim Great photos love following the thread, would there be a chance of a pic of the timber accross the rear boot floor as i have very little timber left on the chassie good luck and keep up the good work. Glenn
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 11, 2012, 03:45:03 PM
Hey Glenn.  Yes, I will take some pictures today and send them.  By "rear boot floor" I presume you mean the wood framing behind the seat?  Let me know if I don't have that right.  From the pictures I post you can tell me if you need to see additional stuff.  Also, I could take some measurements for you if that would help too.  Glad to know you are enjoying the progress reports.  And as long as I am doing another post, I'm going to include some pics.  Thanks for your reply.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 11, 2012, 05:49:47 PM
Another quick post.  I wanted to check the pictures I took of the fabric U-joint on the differential end before I completely disassembled it.  You can see in the picture that the head of the bolt for the drive shaft spyder is on the differential side followed by a flat washer, waffle washer, disk, waffle washer, disk, waffle washer, disk, waffle washer, drive shaft spyder, nut, and cotter pin.  (The cotter pin and nut were removed to get a little space in the assembly so the picture would show the sequence of parts better.)  The bolts to the differential spyder are reversed; that is the nut is on the differential side and the head of the bolt with flat washer and waffle washer is against the disk on the opposite side (towards the front of the car or drive shaft side).  This arrangement of bolts is different from the transmission end fabric U-joint (see my earlier post and sketch in this thread).  Questions?  Send me a post.  I'm headed back to the shop.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 12, 2012, 02:31:25 AM
Hey Chet and Glenn; You both asked for pictures and details about the wood floor structure so this afternoon I decided to take a "kick at the cat".  I started with a sketch (it's pretty amateurish...sorry) that I will post here.  It was pretty fun crawling in, around, and under the car to see what they did.  Pretty amazing, actually; they pretty much built a wood car and then nailed sheet metal to the wood frame.  The main floor members are made of 1.75 inch thick oak and are laid over the top of the frame channel; the inside edge of these main longitudinal member pretty much lays above the inside edge of the top leg of the frame channel...(does that make sense?).  The outside edge of this wood piece follows the contour of the car.  There are 3 wood cross members that extend from side to side; one is above and behind the main steel cross member beneath the cab, the second is about one foot further towards the rear, and the last is at the very back of the car (not shown in my sketch).  In the sketch the small x within a circle is a bolt holding the wood to the frame.  There are wood shims of various thicknesses between the main wood structure and the steel frame; i suppose these were for adjustment of the steel body.  Anyhow, this is getting long so if any of you out there have questions, post them here or send me an email.  I've got lots of pictures; I'll post a few. 
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 12, 2012, 02:40:42 AM
OK...I forgot the sketch...here it is.  Also, I've attached a picture of the floor detail beneath the cowl and a picture of a shim between the wood and the steel frame channel.  More later.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: 29roadster on October 12, 2012, 01:39:32 PM

Hi Kim  This is great info, invaluable, I have been trying to get information on the chassie timber and looking at your pictures is going to get me started on mine, hope you don't mind me annoying you.  Cheers Glenn           
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 12, 2012, 05:29:56 PM
Hi Glenn.  Heck no, I don't mind questions and requests.  Working with other Plymouth owners is a big part of the fun for me.  There will be times when I'll need help from all of you too.  I'll keep posting pictures, so if you have a request, post it here or send me an email.  Your roadster will probably have similar wood construction to my coupe so I can probably help you with the wood above the chassis deck too.  Right now I am having difficulty removing the hinge pins on the trunk lid.  They screw out and I can't get either one to budge at all...yet.  I've been treating both with a rust breaker daily for a week but that doesn't seem to help.  I'm reluctant to put heat to it because of all the wood beneath the metal.  Anyone have a solution?  Also, I've been doing a little research on the internet regarding chemical wood stabilizers and fillers to treat the wood around the perimeter of the top; there are lots of cracks and nail holes (pic attached of front piece above sun visor).   Anyone have any experience with this?  Thanks.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: SDGlenn on October 12, 2012, 10:07:40 PM
Reference your comment about the hinges on the trunk.  I was having the same problem, what I did?  I found a flat screw driver bit that fit my impact driver. Ground the sides of the bit small enough to fit the slot on the pin hinge.  Set the driver at a real "low" setting, and adjusted at needed. Rocked it back and forth a lot of times, it finally came loss. Give it a try, try not let the bit slip in the slot.  Hope this helps.
Take care
SDGlenn
Title: Re: I need some advice...
Post by: kimmc on October 13, 2012, 01:30:41 AM
SDGlenn.  Thanks!  I have not done that.  I'll give that a try and let you know.  The trunk lid is one of the last things I have to take off the body and then I can finally start working on fixing stuff.  I worked on cleaning the dirt and grease off the rear end last night...I actually found a differential under all that mung & graudoo!
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 16, 2012, 06:16:21 AM
Hi all.  Some asked for more detail about the wood framing in the rear of my coupe. I took some time to measure and sketch the rear wood detail.  The sketch may be confusing but the pictures may help.  If you need further explanation or additional pictures, don't be shy.  Remember, mine is a coupe so sedans will be different.

Attach 1: Sketch of detail: this starts near the vertical wood support beneath the L rear corner of the cab area and gives much more detail of the rear-most wood. (this area is near the bottom of my previous sketch).  This sketch includes more detail of the rear wood framing and the wood framing across the rear of the car (just below the bottom of the trunk opening.

Attach 2: Left rear corner of car; timber on right is extension of main timber from firewall to this back corner.  Rear-most wood floor board sits on this.  Butting up to it on its right is 3.25" wide piece of oak that runs across the back between the 2 main L & R timbers.  Sitting vertically on this is a 2.75" high piece with dado that extends between the metal drip edge of the trunk opening. The dado holds the rear edge of the back wood floor board.  On top of that is a 1.25 thick piece that extends to the widest trunk opening.  This piece holds the latch mechanism and its rear-most edge follows the contour of the back metal piece (curved).  The wood piece ( 1.75 x 1 5/8 inches x 48" long) that supports the curve of the trunk opening above the rear fender is shown butted against the wide flat piece; it then goes up to the top of the picture and out of view.

Attach 3: picture of what the sketch shows (much dirt obscures things) but the wood pieces and steel frame hump are apparent.

The sketch and my descriptions may not be clear or easy to follow so send me a post if you would like more clarification or more pictures.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: Old Man on October 16, 2012, 05:18:18 PM
This is the stuff you want to use on rotted wood. As it says it mixes like water,it does, and can be poured into wood and sets up to a biege plastic in about 5 minutes. You don't want to mix very much at any time because it does set fast. This container was about $50. I used it on dryed out hard wood and it worked wonders. Because of it I did not have to remake several pieces. I just used masking tape as a dam to stop it from running off. The tape just pulls off it like it would on paint. It comes with a can of talcum powder which you can use as a filler. When you run out you can buy kid's talcum powder at the drug store. It's on the internet. You can also repair cracked plastic knobs but you would have to paint the knob in it's original color. Black gear shift knobs can be saved with it. It also works wonders on rust. If you have a piece of metal that you can't clean all the rust off of and you are afraind of removing too much metal, you can pour or quickly brush Polyall on the remaining rust and it will seal the surface forever. Unlike paint it will not let go as it wicks right into the rust and underlying surface and then hardens. Then you just paint over it in chassis black for a finish. You have to buy throw away brushes at a dollar store because the Polyall hardens in the brush as well. I think it's so good because of it's thinness. It's like water and flows into places fiberglass resin and body fill can't. Fantastic stuff.     
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: SDGlenn on October 16, 2012, 05:37:57 PM
This is one old man agreeing with the "Old Man".  This stuff is good.  Try it, it will make a believer out of you.
Thanks Guys, and "Old Man". (this old man couldn't remember the name of the product.)
SDGlenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 16, 2012, 10:58:31 PM
Old Man and SDGlenn:  Thanks so much guys!  I was researching stuff on the internet to figure out what to use.  To have 2 recommendations helps so much!  I like the idea that this is water-thin and will soak into the places that need stabilization.  I'm going to get on the internet check this stuff out and place an order.  I will still need to re-make some pieces but not so much now.  Thanks again for the help.  Regards, Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 18, 2012, 01:23:34 AM
Is there some one out there that restores the Plymouth firewall placque and the Fedco dash placque (pictures attached).  I am looking for a professional job but am interested in hearing DIY or other options.  Thanks.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: chetbrz on October 19, 2012, 01:25:49 AM
Kim,

I got this repro from somebody but at the moment I can't remember who.  It is for my 1948 Plymouth.

I will try to look through my old records and let you know. 

(http://www.chetscoins.com/1948p15/2005_Thumbnails/PlymouthSgn.jpg)

Chet...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 19, 2012, 03:12:56 AM
Thanks Chet.  I appreciate it.  Today was a work day.  I decided to take advantage of the last of our warm weather (supposed to be 20 degrees cooler on Monday).  I rolled the coupe out of the shop and began to degrease and pressure wash it.  First I blasted everything I could from the top side then I put it up on the lift and worked on it some more.  I sprayed it with degreaser from a garden type pump-up sprayer, let it sit a while, and then hit it with the pressure washer again.  Good thing it was warm because I got soaking wet.  When I was ready to quit, I sprayed all the stubborn greasy spots using a couple of cans of oven cleaner from the Dollar Store.  I'll let those marinate over night then finish washing tomorrow.  It's looking really good.  The heavy dirt and grease is gone. Pictures attached.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: SDGlenn on October 19, 2012, 05:44:23 PM
Thanks, I never thought about oven cleaner, hope it works for you, better than the scraper and wire brush maybe. lol  Looking good.

SDGlenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 20, 2012, 08:07:56 AM
I used heavy duty degreasers on everything first (Purple Power and Citrus degreasers); the frame, axels, backing plates, springs, everything was heavily coated with a mix of dirt and grease/oil.  Once I got the heavy stuff blasted off, I used the oven cleaner on the residue that remained.  It works good and only costs $1 a can at the Dollar Store.  Even so, I probably sprayed degreaser on everything about 4 times followed by pressure wash.  Then I used the oven cleaner and pressure washed that.  Today I hit it again; there was still gunk coming off.  I decided I would have to pressure wash the interior too.  There was so much dirt coming out of every crevice.  The only thing I didn't wash was the top wood.  After I was satisfied that it was as good as I could get it, I used an air nozzle to blow all the water off the wood.  I figured a little water wouldn't hurt it; the wood floor and support structure are exposed to water, mud, snow, etc. from the bottom side.  The chassis looks pretty good now; you can see the original black paint on the frame and the backing plates are clean!  It will much nicer to work on the chassis, wheels, etc now.  I moved it to my garage where it will spend the winter (a Calif. winter); I'll pull the wheels and refinish them, do the brakes, and get the split rims re-plated with cadmium (original finish on mine), repair the wood, etc.  I found an interesting item today.  There is a bracket on each side that secures the cab to the frame on the latch side of the door.  These are cast brass! (magnet test).  The brackets beneath the cowl on the hinge side of the door are steel. Who knew!  Pictures attached.  Old Man & SDGlenn; I've ordered the PolyAll to repair the wood.  Thanks again for that tip.  Kim
 
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: 29roadster on October 20, 2012, 09:45:57 AM
Hi Kim  Gee you done a good job on cleaning up the ol girl, At the rate your working she will be back on the road for spring.
   good luck and the pics are great sketches are a big help. Glenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 20, 2012, 04:23:13 PM
Thanks Glenn.  I've attached a couple of pics of before and after degreasing and pressure washing.  Next I plan to post some pics and maybe a sketch of the top detail.  If anyone out there is especially interested in that, let me know.  I can email you more pictures than I can post here; and I know the top is going to require more pictures.  I'm going for a drive in my '35 Plymouth Deluxe sedan this morning....can't work all the time.  Have a good weekend.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 21, 2012, 06:07:03 PM
Well, my wife, her friend, and I took the '35 to a BBQ party about 75 miles away.  The car did fine but most of the trip had to be on the freeway.  I would have preferred good, less busy back roads, but the many "thumbs up" from other passers-by made for fun travel.  It's still weird though to have no seat belt on!  And at every turn I reach for the turn-signal lever.  I told my wife I hope some gang-banger doesn't think I'm flipping them off when I'm signaling a turn with my arm out the window!  The car has developed a loud noise from the left rear brake (?) when braking hard; it doesn't do it if I gently apply the brakes.  Haven't seen any brake fluid anywhere but I will have to look into it.  So, that is another project I'm going to have to check out.  I am going to post another couple of pics of the cleaned up chassis of the '29.  Time to get outside and get going on my list of things to do today; it is supposed to start raining tonight and I've got lots of stuff out that I want to get under cover.  Later, Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 21, 2012, 06:16:31 PM
I forgot the attachments again...together they exceed the 1000KB limit so I will post the two separately. 
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 21, 2012, 06:25:05 PM
Well, the forum program doesn't want to accept pictures right now (it couldn't be "operator error"), so I will try again later.  Check back this evening.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 21, 2012, 07:20:48 PM
post-pressure washing pics....
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 21, 2012, 07:21:52 PM
another post-pressure washing pic...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 22, 2012, 02:57:14 AM
Well, maybe some one out there knows about original paint colors on '29 Plymouths.  I've been puzzling over all the information I can find on the internet, including Tod Fitch's Ply33 site.  What I've found doesn't match the colors on my car.  There is only one green, Ardsley green, listed for the '29 Plymouths.  my car has two different greens of original paint; the body is a medium green and the beauty stripe is a dark green (pictures attached).  The one picture is the original green body paint under the windshield wiper motor; the other is a picture of the 2 greens together on the beauty stripe behind the door.The fenders were black.  Moreover, the paint info I have found states that a gray was used as the trim color with Ardsley green.  That wasn't the case with my car.  I know there are a lot of unexplained peculiar things with these old cars.  But I thought maybe someone out there would have more info than I do right now.  I want to restore the car as close as possible to it's original colors when my great grandfather bought it new.  Thanks for any help you can give.  Kim     
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: chetbrz on October 22, 2012, 01:01:43 PM
It seems to me that you have the two best paint chips anyone can find.  Gray and Green just donít sound right to me.  Unfortunately my Salesmenís Reference manual for 1929 is missing pages 3 & 4 Special Colors and accessories.

Chet...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 22, 2012, 06:22:10 PM
Thanks Chet.  I don't have that manual so now I have something to hunt for.  Maybe a forum member has a 1929 Salesman's Reference Manual that they can check for paint colors....anyone? 
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: 1930 on October 23, 2012, 02:35:26 AM
I have several color bulletins for the 32 Plymouth cars but nothing for 29.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 23, 2012, 04:24:54 AM
Thanks for looking Jason...I appreciate your effort.  I agree with Chet that I have the 2 color "chips" already on the car and I can probably have those matched.  I have been trying to find in the literature the names for those particular colors so I can use these when I shop for paint.  Painting the car is a long way off, but I have been trying to find info about '29 paint colors for the past two years.  I figured others on this forum would be good sources; Chet's info about the Salesman's Reference Manual is a new lead and something I will pursue.  Thanks again for the reply.  By the way, I took lots of measurements and pictures of the top wood structure inside and out and the wood around the back of the cab (which is probably similar in both coupes and sedans).  There is a lot of text and many pictures.  I emailed a large document to a couple of members that had asked for this stuff.  So, if there is anyone else out there interested in the top wood and interior wood of the cab, let me know.  I'll post a couple of pictures here for all to look at.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: frankp on October 24, 2012, 03:50:20 AM
Kim, I have a listing of colors from old magazine, but it must be with the pic of a PA 2dr Thrift - lord knows where they are, however;

Checkout www.autocolorlibrary.com for possible combos with Ditz-Lac Intermix #s.  Their listings are in the same format I can't locate. They list several Green/Green.  Be sure to check the colors for 1929 Chrysler also.  My understanding, the dealers could special order for colors in the Chrysler family.
Good luck!!
frank
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 24, 2012, 05:29:38 AM
Hey, I think I may have found the colors.  They are on the 1929 Chrysler, just as you suggested.  I had looked at Chrysler before but never had the color chips that this site provided.  Thanks so much Frank.  This is great info.  Regards, Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 25, 2012, 06:32:49 AM
Hello.  I spent most of the day cleaning up, organizing, and putting up a new shelf unit to store the many parts and fasteners.  I made sure everything was bagged, labeled, and stored in labeled bins (pic attached).  The Dollar Store has great containers for this kind of stuff.  I did remove the two rear motor mounts.  I thought they were just a steel bracket bolted to the frame.  Turns out there is a chunk of old rubber sandwiched in each (pic attached); the rubber is so hard it is just about like steel.  I'll have to have these re-built or buy new; don't know at this point.  More looking to do on the internet.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: imoore on October 25, 2012, 12:31:41 PM
Hi Kim,
Nice to see the tear down coming along smoothly. With the rear mount the link below as them listed at $195 for the pair. I got my front mount from them. Very good people.
By the looks of the photo they have u are going to have to remove the riveted bracket from your old mount. 

http://www.maritimedragracing.com/HTMLobj-18312/PLYMWEbMounts-C-pdf.pdf

Hope this helps
Ian
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: 29roadster on October 25, 2012, 02:26:51 PM
Hi Ian   Are you saying that i have to remove the riveted section of the mount and then send the rubber section to Then and Now auto parts and then they repair it and send it back to me. the front mount you can buy of the shelf. cheers Glenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: imoore on October 25, 2012, 10:51:02 PM
Well with the front mount i brought was change over. So i would guess the rear mount would be the same.
But not sure exactly. I think you would have to remove the riveted bracket, send them the mount and they will send you a re furbished  one. 
Ian
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 27, 2012, 01:49:59 AM
Well, is this crazy?  I decided to fill all the tack and nail holes in the top wood piece above the R door.  I used Titebond waterproof glue to fill the holes then tapped toothpics deep into the wood.  I figured that when the new top goes on I don't want new fasteners just going into old holes and not holding well.  Once I cut these off and sand them flush, I will follow with a treatment of the PolyAll that Old Man recommended; that should fill all the cracks and splits and bad spots.  This one side was really tedious.  I hope this isn't a dumb waste of time!  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: 1930 on October 27, 2012, 02:58:54 AM
I dont think that was a waste of time at all
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: SDGlenn on October 27, 2012, 06:38:05 AM
 I've seen ashtrays that almost looked like that. lol
Good job, looks right.
SD Glenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: frankp on October 27, 2012, 04:55:41 PM
Great idea and nice work!!  Used dowels for screw holes, never thought about toothpicks!  As Tinkeys said "Do once do it right."
frankp
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 28, 2012, 12:39:55 AM
Well, I tried out the PolyAll recommended by the Old Man and SDGlenn.  You guys are right, that is great stuff.  Just follow the directions.  It only comes in two 16 0z cans (parts A & B) now; the shipping from Canada is almost as much as the product but it is worth it I think.  For the job I'll show you in the attached pictures I only used about a tablespoon of each.  I first built a dam to keep the liquid from running all over (I had the chore of having to remove the contents of a beer can first...tough job but someone had to do it).  I cut a piece of aluminum, slid it under the repair area and taped it in place.  Then I brushed on the liquid PolyAll to get it way back in the holes.  Then I mixed up a putty as directed using sawdust as a filler.  I packed it into the voids and holes with a steel punch.  I was also able to build the wood out to cover the opening at the top of the door post that needed to be closed (compare the 1st and last pics).  The stuff set up pretty fast but slow enough that I could work the sawdust mixture into the holes and smooth the surface.  I was pretty happy with my first job with this stuff.  I will work on the front wood piece above the windshield next; it has lots of cracks that PolyAll will fill very well.  I am going to try using the PolyAll to saturate the nail & tack holes, then tap tooth pics into the holes.  I'll follow that by another coat of PolyAll over the toothpics; I think that will be faster and maybe better that the wood glue routine I used first.  Either way, the wood should be ready for a new top someday without a bunch of old rusty holes in the wood (I think there may have been 3 tops; the original, the one put on in about 1956 when I got the car, and probably one other along the way before '56).  I'm going to have to put up the pictures in several posts; I've reduced the size of them as much as I know how to do.  Fun day in the shop with my project.  Have a good weekend.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 28, 2012, 12:42:09 AM
More pictures of the PolyAll repair job....
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 28, 2012, 12:43:29 AM
last picture of my PolyAll job...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: Old Man on October 28, 2012, 04:21:25 AM
I wish I had had this stuff back in 1977 when I started my '29U. It is actually called PolyAll 2000 because I believe it did not come around until then. I would never have disassembled my '29 to the bare bones the way I did. I spent many hours cutting up new hard wood and routing in the different designs. I could have taken out each piece alright but simply doused it with PolyAll and put it right back in. Pretty much what you're doing. I HIGHLY recommend to all and sundry to follow this restoration and learn how to use this stuff to restore the hardwood frame in situ. This is the only sane way to restore these cars unless you are going to spend several years learning to fashion new wood or have a spare several thousand to have someone do it for you. Kimmc is doing exactly what I would do today if I could set the clock back to that '29U tear down. I spent 5 or 6 years working on it only to sell it with all my work in it. This PolyAll will shorten this restoration down by years. Literally.   
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 28, 2012, 09:10:42 AM
Thanks OM.  PolyAll is exactly as you described....really great stuff.  I was unsure what to do about some of the wood but all doubt is gone now after today's 1st experience working with PolyAll.  I will post pictures of the top front wood piece as I treat it...it should make a good "show and tell".  I am attaching a picture now so you can see the wood piece I will be working on.  Thanks again OM for sharing your "find".  Kim 
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 29, 2012, 04:09:11 AM
Hello everyone.  I worked on a small part (about 6 inches adjacent to the corner I posted about) of the top front wood this afternoon.  Learned some more lessons too.  I put up a wood dam smeared with a light coat of silicon as a "mold release".  There was some missing wood around the left front corner that I wanted to fill.  PolyAll sets up fast; they're not kidding when they sat it sets in 3 minutes!  I thought I could brush it over the nail holes to let it run down in them, then tap in about a dozen toothpics, then put a second coat on around the base of the toothpics.  Well, the product set up after I got just a few toothpics in the holes.  I mixed up some PolyAll with sawdust to fill the big holes just like last time.  The sawdust slows down the set up time a lot and gives much more time to work the stuff into the bigger voids (probably about 6 minutes).  I am only mixing about 1 teaspoon of each; by the time I am finished with applying that little bit, it's beginning to set.  I am using those small tinning brushes; they're cheap and after 1 use they are done.  So, plan your job, don't try to cover too much ground, use small quantities of PolyAll, work fast, use disposable supplies, and cover any part of the car where the PolyAll may drip.  4 pics will follow; 2 here and 2 more in a second post.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 29, 2012, 04:11:00 AM
2 more pictures...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 29, 2012, 07:25:43 PM
Just a follow-up picture and a short note.  I rough sanded the repair I did yesterday (about 14 hrs ago).  I used a sanding block with about 80 grit.  The PolyAll sanded easily and both the wood and repair sounded and felt solid.  I will go back and do some touch-up applications and more sanding of course, but I was happy with the outcome and how little total time it took to do this.  Back to work (read play).  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: chetbrz on October 30, 2012, 01:54:18 AM
Kim,

How thick is the wood measuring in the center of the windshield.  Dimentionally from windshield to top of roof.

Also the thickness of the wood at the center of your driver side door.

Ths Chet...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 30, 2012, 03:50:06 AM
Hi Chet.  Here you go.

"wood measuring in the center of the windshield":  1 3/4 inches top to bottom x 1 3/4 inches front to back

"dimentionally from windshield to top of roof: 4 7/8 inches from top of windshield opening to top of wood (but most of this is the steel that supports the sun visor.  (see pic)

"thickness of the wood at the center of driver side door:  2 1/4 inches top to bottom x 3 1/4 inches outside edge to inside edge.  (see pic; outside edge follows curve of door and body.

You will probably need some more info, so just let me know.  Glad to help.  There are 3 pics so there will have to be 2 posts. 
You can see that I am working on these top wood pieces right now.  I've almost emptied a box of 250 toothpics (each cut in half so that's almost 500 tack and nail holes I've filled so far...and more to go!).  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 30, 2012, 03:52:06 AM
Chet:  here's a long view of the wood above the driver's door.  Let me know if you want more pics or measurements.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: chetbrz on October 30, 2012, 06:32:57 PM

This is great Kim,  Many Thanks  Chet...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: SDGlenn on October 30, 2012, 07:10:51 PM
Can you imagine the expertise of these workmen, wood and metal, that built these auto bodies. All these years ago, without all the modern machines, tools,  and PC's helping. It is amazing.  Kim, you are doing a marvelous job also, you maybe would have fit in with these past workmen.  Good job. I like your workshop. nice.
SD Glenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 31, 2012, 04:05:39 AM
Hey SDGlenn.  Good to hear from you.  You are right about the guys that built these early Plymouths...I can't imagine that job.  Basically, they built the skeleton of a car out of wood, then nailed the sheet metal to it!  It's got to be a big job to re-do the wood; mine is in pretty good shape but it will still take a lot of time to get it the way I want it.  Little by little.  Your comment about the toothpics looking like some ashtrays you had seen made me laugh out loud!  It's got even more toothpics now all the way around the top....the car kind of looks like a kid with one of those spikey hair do-s!  My garage/shop was a long time coming...for many years we didn't have a garage at all.  Then my wife decided to remodel the place.  I went along with that as long as I got my own garage/shop.  She wanted a dining room (among other things) but decided that the designer's plans put it in the wrong place (it was to share a wall with my garage).  She decided we should gut the utility/mud room to make a dining room.  The planned dining room would become part of my garage!  I didn't argue at all!! I appreciate you replies.  Take care.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on October 31, 2012, 10:09:57 PM
OK, I need some help from you all.  While working on the top wood, I have noticed that the doors are not aligned properly.  The R door especially is hanging down on the handle side.  If I could put it up where it needs to be in order for the beauty lines to line up, the top of the door will rub on the top metal of the door frame (the part beneath the top R wood piece.  The door frame is up as far as it is going to go.  I don't see any way to adjust anything, even the door.  So, how do I get the doors to fit the opening properly and still have clearance at the top.  The 1st pic shows the misalignment at the door handle side.  The 2nd pic shows the minimal clearance at the top now; there is less clearance above the middle of the door and more clearance above either end (by at least 1/4+ inch).  Some one out there must have faced this same problem.  Thanks for the help.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: SDGlenn on November 01, 2012, 02:16:00 AM
Kim, Referencing your door not aligning right.  I hope it is just the hinges that are sprung, not the body twisted. You may be able to spring the hinges with blocks, to make it fit. You don't have to move the door much so be careful. I would try that first.  My doors fit perfectly so I did not have that to contend with. Good luck with that.
SD Glenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: Old Man on November 01, 2012, 09:46:18 PM
These wooden bodies can be twisted out of shape. You need to trammel the body with the frame or some outside data point to see if it needs to be realigned. This isn't as difficult as it sounds. You can use a point on the center of the frame as a data point. With the floor boards off identify a point on the transmission in it's center. Usually on the cover. Loosen a bolt and place some kind of connector ,that will hold the end of a tape measure, under it and retighten. You may need two people to do this. With someone holding the start of a tape measure at the connector, run the tape measure up to the door openings, one side at a time, and mark down the distances. The points can be the corners of the door openings or any point you choose. Just use the exact same point on each side of the body. It will become obvious as you do this if the car is still true or not. If the door openings are square,which I believe they are, you can also use a carpenter's square to check. But be aware that the car body may be leaning to the left or right. It's most likely not leaning forward or backward because of the metal cowl. If you find any discrepencies, the fix is to use small shims of wood under the chines. These are the main large pieces that run down either side of the body on the frame. Of course it may also be obvious to you to push only one door post one way or the other to get want you want. If I remember correctly there were small steel brackets holding the door posts in place? You may have remove their screws and replace them with larger ones to get them to tighten. Also make sure the main body to frame bolts are tight. The problem is dry wood shrinks with time it does not swell. The doors on a '28/'29 are held by hinges in wooden door posts. I assume you have already made sure of the hinges and their screws?  
  The other way to trammel a body,or an airplane, is to find or make a point in the room in front or to the side and measure from there to the car. A common point on a wall is one of the best points. I used that. One last point. You should be doing this with the car off it's wheels and on axle stands which are under the frame at the 4 corners. The frame should be be level and it needs to the same height on each side and at the 4 corners. You don't want to introduce you own twist. The frames on these old cars are not very stiff.                      
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on November 02, 2012, 03:35:16 AM
Hi OM.  OK...wow....this should be a challenge.  I have a friend who is a retired body and frame guy and also an old car buff.  I hope to recruit him...I've already spoken to him about the door fit issue I posted here.  He can probably help me "trammel" the body.  I understand the importance of getting the frame level (and square too I presume) then using a fixed point on the center of the frame as the reference point for measurements to different places on the body.  The motor and transmission are out of the car now but I expect I can use a centerline point on a frame crossmember.  But I am not sure I understand all the details about the "point on the wall".  I presume one would have measure from the wall point to a couple of points on the frame to make certain the frame was "square" with the wall first, then once that is good, start making measurements from the wall point to points on the body.  Is this correct?  I have done nothing with any adjustments or shimming yet.  I wanted to make sure I knew how to go about it so that I didn't make things worse by doing the wrong thing.  But I suspect that since these cars were made of a combination of wood and steel that these bodies were pretty "loosey-goosey" and that the fit "lines" were never very good or consistent.  This is hard for a perfectionist who tends to want everything exactly right!  Thanks so much for taking the time to respond and explain to me how to trammel the body.  I'm not going to tackle this right now but I will let you know what I find when I do this.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on November 02, 2012, 08:21:55 AM
Did a little more PolyAll work on the top front wood piece today.  Sequence: sanded work site to clean wood of paint & dirt, air blasted, 1st coat PolyAll only; 2nd coat with sawdust filler in PolyAll on un-sanded 1st coat, then sanded, air blasted; 3rd coat PolyAll only, then sanded, air blasted.  Tonight or tomorrow will put another coat of fine wood filler on, sand it, then follow it with a final (hopefully) 5th coat of PolyAll.  Then I will move on to the other half of the front top wood piece (visible is some of the pics).  Will have to put the pictures in a couple of posts; I can only fit 2 pics on each post.  Hope I'm not boring you all!
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on November 02, 2012, 08:23:44 AM
...the other 2 pics that go with above...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: Old Man on November 02, 2012, 04:57:47 PM
It's funny you used the term loosey goosey. I considered using it in my post. The wall point is quite handy because if you find the body is leaning you put an eye bolt in the wall  and a C clamp on the body. Then connect the two together using wire rope and you can pull the body straight and start to pin it there. Loosen any bracket and retighten it in the 'straight' position. Also applying your own brackets in places out of the way where they will not interfere with the upholstery etc. You can buy an assortment of small right angle brakects and 'T' brackets at any hardware store. Make sure you buy the ones with an additional small re-enforcement in the bend of the right angle brackets.
    Then you let the wire go and see if the body stays put. I've done this and it does work. I forgot to mention that you need a small gizmo called a turnbuckle in the wire so you can fine adjust the length of the wire. You would be pulling the body towards the wall so the car would have to be in a positon where it is leaning AWAY from the wall. Or if it's a small room,use the other wall of course. I did. You put the anchor point on the car up high for 2 reasons. Purchase on the lever from the fulcrum which is what the body is at this point and you want to keep the wire high away from you. (I'm 6' tall and still got hit.) As I say I have done this and it does work. I also hung a plumb bob down from the ceiling to the front of the windshield and marked the car when the car was vertical. Then every time I let the turnbuckle loose I would watch the plumb bob to see if it moved away from the mark. If it did,back went the turnbuckle until the car was back at the mark. You may want to loosen some of the metal panels and reseat their nails as well. I found it was better if you use wood screws in the panels,again out of the way of the upholstery, as the screws hold much better. If you can't use a screw then buy the same nails like they used originally but longer. If they used 1/2" you use 1" etc. Strike hard and straight with a good hammer. This is hard wood and although some of it may be soft at the surface it will still be hard underneath. And yes the correct word for straightening a body in a body shop is trammeling. They use lasers now to do it. You see vehicles incorrectly trammeled when you are behind them and you see they are 'dog legging' it down the road. It's because some part of the front or rear axle system is not square with the body. Instead of the 2 axles and the frame forming a square box they form a parallelgram. Drives me crazy. I want to pull them over and tell him or her to take the damn thing back to the shop and get it fixed! It's actually dangerous on wet or icey roads. The manufacturer and companies like Bear Alignment give out trammeling measurements to the shops to make sure the car or truck is straight and true after the accident repair. But many backyard shops dont' do it.         
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on November 03, 2012, 04:02:27 AM
Hi OM.  Thanks for the detailed instructions.  It all makes sense; all I lack is the confidence that I know exactly what i'm doing!  I think I will save this job for when I move my car back to the big shop.  It has I-beam columns and I am pretty certain those are not going to move (there's 5 yards of concrete in the footing under each one!!).  I am afraid if I put an I-bolt in the garage wall (which is a common wall with the living room) and manage to put a crack in the new dry wall, I might as well pack up, move into the garage, and learn to cook ramen on a hot plate!  I will talk to my body and frame friend tomorrow about trammeling my car.  Also, I have a neighbor just down the road that builds street rods for a living.  He has a "table" for truing up frames and chassis's.  I will talk to him too.  Maybe I can hire him and use his expertise (that is if he is willing to work on a restoration project).  Seems to me that getting the body and frame square with the rest of the world is a fundamental step to complete before doing a lot of the remainder of the restoration.  I've thought about it some.  With engine and trans out of the car, it seems to me that once the frame is supported, leveled, and squared up, that I could use a center point on a frame cross-member from which to take the other measurements to points on the body.  Lots to think about.  Anyhow, you have given me great info and it is something that I will do.  Thanks for your help.  I'll let you know how this turns out.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on November 08, 2012, 06:08:44 AM
Hello all.  Well, I've been absent a few days while I proceeded to take the OM's advice and check my car for "squareness".  We had some discussion here about it after I posted a picture of the passenger door not lining up where it should.  I thought about how to go about "trammeling" the car as OM suggested but decided to modify the procedure somewhat.  I figured that before I trussed up the car to the wall like a Christmas goose, I would check it out in a more simple way that I thought would show me if the car body and/or frame was out of whack and needed more serious work.  I started by just checking that the car was level where it sat in the garage.  I decided to use an old fashion carpenter's wooden folding measure; I figured it would be easier to use and keep straight unlike a metal tape measure.  I picked 3 different sites on the frame that had good points where I could take pairs of diagonal measurements.  I also picked 3 different sites on the body where I could measure from points at the bottom of the body to a point diagonally across the cab near the top.  Finally, I measured diagonally across the windshield opening.  I recorded everything, with sketches and pictures, in my log book.  The bottom line was that the frame is square...dead on.  I guess the steel stock gate that I totaled when I crashed through with no brakes didn't hurt the car at all!  (I was 13 and my dad saw it all).  The body is also sitting squarely on the frame; the cab is not leaning to one side at all.  Finally, the windshield opening is square as well.  So, I am satisfied that the car is good as it sits and that I can proceed with wood repair and other jobs without worrying about whether the car and frame are square and in their proper positions.  The doors will have to be tweeked and worked to get them into their correct positions.  I am much relieved that I don't have frame &/or body alignment issues.  But I am glad that I checked things out like I did; it just took me a few days to figure out the best way for me to proceed.  Now back to working on the top wood.   
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on November 09, 2012, 07:55:24 AM
Well, today was a learning day and a step backwards.  I wasn't satisfied with the "even-ness" of the space between the top of the driver's door and the top of the door jamb.  It was wide on the ends and narrow above the middle of the door.  I thought there might be some obstruction that would not let me push the trim up against the main wood top piece above it.  I pulled the nails from the outside of the metal trim on the top of the door jamb and bent the tabs down thinking I might be able to clean out the space between the metal and the wood but that did not work well.  So, I decided to pull the nails from the inside of the metal piece and remove it completely.  Much better.  There were toothpics I had driven into the holes sticking out the bottom of the oak frame.  Because of those I could not get the metal trim pushed up tight against the wood.  With the metal trim removed I will be able to a much better repair of the wood piece and get the bottom of it flat so the trim will fit well.  Also, I can clean the rust from the trim and get it ready for paint.  Finally, this trim has well preserved original paint that I can probably take to the auto paint store and get a good match.  I'll finish this project eventually....little by little.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: 1930 on November 09, 2012, 08:52:54 AM
That is a very nice paint sample.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on November 20, 2012, 11:04:11 PM
Well, I'm finally back to doing some work on the coupe again after a few days of doing other "chores" for the family.  I'm still working on the top wood.  Had to figure out a way to clamp the cracks I wanted to glue up.  I thought an old style carpenter's wood screw clamp would work but I couldn't get it to hold like I wanted so I made one out to 2 pieces of plywood, a bolt, and a C-clamp.  Works pretty good.  I glued a crack this morning and will continue on to fix the others.  The picture shows a void I will fill with the PolyAll mixed with sawdust.  I am going to have to pick up the pace if I want to get the car on the road by next summer!
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: SDGlenn on November 21, 2012, 04:27:08 AM
Keep it up Kim, you will eventually get there. Some time it is good to take a short break, then a person feels like hitting it hard again. I keep thinking how lucky I was to find one in the shape it was in when I got it. Only had basically mechanical things to fix. I am looking forward to seeing your completed project.  Take care.
SDGlenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on November 21, 2012, 08:05:32 AM
Hi Glenn.  Thanks for the pep talk.  Lots going on this time of year.  I guess I feel like progress is slow because I haven't been getting to work on the car for the last week or 10 days.  But you are right; it's good to get away for a while and not burn out.  It will be good to get this part behind me and be able to move on to something new.  But for now, it looks like lots of wood work ahead of me.  Maybe I can break it up with re-doing the wheels and brakes!  OK.  Thanks.  Will keep you posted.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: 29roadster on November 21, 2012, 11:09:17 AM
Yep keep it going Kim i think your doing a great job , and i have really missed seeing your progress it motivates me.
  Cheers  Glenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on November 21, 2012, 07:44:17 PM
Thanks Glenn.  Hearing from you all, talking about restoration stuff, and just corresponding with you guys about this stuff is a lot of fun for me and keeps me plugging along.  I check this site everyday to see what's new and I look forward to getting the feedback posts.  Thanks for your participation.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: chetbrz on November 22, 2012, 02:27:02 AM
Kim,

I enjoy reading your posts and seeing the pictures.  Some day I'll get to do the same on my old heap.  Great to have this thread as a guide.

Chet...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: frankp on November 28, 2012, 05:02:36 PM
Kim, I add my encouragement, too.  Getting back home and checking the forum, gets the juices flowing to work on mine.   Can't do much without a heated garage in Minnesota, so will get satisfaction from your accomplishments and what other folks are working on.
frank
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: Tinkeys on November 30, 2012, 11:08:35 PM
Hi Kim !!
          We even enjoy what's happening on your post down here in Australia ,keep us posted AAA+++
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on December 08, 2012, 09:04:52 PM
Hi guys.  Thanks for all the feedback.  My wife and I have been baking our bones on the beach in Puerto Vallarta Mexico for the past week.  Just got back last night so now I have to start "drying out" and getting back to the real world!  I'll resume work on my coupe this week and start posting my progress again.  It was great to come back and find your posts.  Thanks and look for more soon.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: Tinkeys on February 10, 2013, 12:27:52 PM
Hi Kimmc
Amy progress on your Plymouth !
Cheers Tony.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on February 11, 2013, 07:57:59 PM
Hi Tinkeys and everyone.  Well, I've been taking a break, sort of.  Besides taking a vacation, doing lots of home/yard maintenance, and trying to get out and drive my 1935 Plymouth some, I tried to follow your lead, Tinkeys, and work on 2 car projects at once.  I don't think I will be as successful as you, however.  I've owned a 1967 Mustang convertible 4-speed since it was new.  I last drove it in 1982 and for many of the ensuing years it was not in the kind of storage I would have chosen, just the best I could do at the time.  Last Oct. I met a young mechanic that is real good at his craft and who wanted to assist me with restoration/modification of my Mustang.  The short story is that once I got into it I decided it wasn't just going to be a "clean up" job and put it on the road.  Now it is completely "deconstructed" and should go to the media blasting this week.  The engine has been completely rebuilt and the rest will follow.  I am keeping it a "matching numbers" car but I am modifying it for drivability including suspension improvements and a T-5 transmission.  I want to drive the thing, not just haul it around and show it!  My wife is pretty excited about it too and keeps showing me paint colors she likes!  So, I am trying to split my time (unevenly) between the '29 and the '67 at present.  Progress on the '29 has slowed but now that the sun is out more I'm getting more ambitious and will pick up the pace on the '29.  I have been spending lots of time on the web looking for a good used compressor to hook up to my sand blasting cabinet 'cause I've got lots of stuff now for both cars that needs it.  And I'm tentatively making plans to drive my unrestored original* 1935 Plymouth Deluxe Sedan to the National Plymouth Meet in Tucson AZ at the end of April (*except for its T-5 transmission).  That's a trip of about 1000 mi one-way on side roads, not freeways.  I've got to think about that some more!  Anyhow, it was good to hear from you and yes, I'm still here plugging away on my projects.  Although I haven't posted much for a while, I do check into the Forum almost daily.  Take care buddy, and happy trails in your old rides.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on February 17, 2013, 06:31:55 PM
Well, after a break, I got back to working on the '29 coupe repairing and "restoring" the wood pieces of the top framing.  As I posted here previously, I used the product Poly-All, a 2-part polyurethane liquid that when mixed quickly sets up to a hard plastic.  I like working with it because as a liquid it can be poured into small spaces or voids to fill them completely.  After it sets (a matter of only minutes), the excess can be easily filed flush then sanded.  Previously, for large open holes, I mixed the Poly with sawdust to fill large open holes.  This time I was dealing with cracks and voids, some that went through the wood from top to bottom.  I wanted to fill these completely but was afraid the Poly-sawdust mixture would not flow into deep crevices and voids.  So, I just used the liquid with tape "dams" to keep the Poly liquid where I wanted it.  I tried different techniques using aluminum foil, tape and foil, and just tape and found the tape alone worked best for me.  One just has to make sure that all places where the liquid might escape from the "damed" area are completely sealed so the liquid doesn't run out.  One trick I learned here was that if a spot was particularly difficult to seal perfectly with tape and the liquid would run out, I would let the Poly mix get to the point of being viscous (like thick syrup), then pour it in where it would still fill but also "set" quickly.  I have selected a set of 7 pictures to show the process start to finish so I will have to do several posts in a row; sorry, but I have reduced the size of the pictures as much as my photo tool program will allow.  The restoration work isn't perfect but the wood is in much better condition now to receive a new top someday.  Now I've begun to work on the dry rot in top wood at rear corner on the passenger's side.  I will post my progress, but this project will be more difficult (I think I posted some pictures previously on this thread.)  Here's a list of the attached pictures (and for those in the following posts).

1)  voids in top wood above driver's door
2)  side view of taped void
3)  top view of toped void
4)  filling void
5)  filled void with solidified Poly
6)  bottom view showing how liquid Poly completely filled the void through the wood
7)  wood beam sanded
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on February 17, 2013, 06:33:42 PM
more pictures....
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on February 17, 2013, 06:35:14 PM
two more pictures....
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on February 17, 2013, 06:36:30 PM
last picture...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: SDGlenn on February 18, 2013, 12:43:10 AM
GOOD JOB Kim, looking great.  The Fiberglass cloth will work fine with the Poly you are using, if you think some areas might be a bit weak (from lose of the wood continuity) and need re-enforcing.  Looks good, good luck.
Later
SDGlenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: frankp on February 19, 2013, 12:49:53 AM
Kim - great work!!  I wish my dad would have had the PolyAll back when.  He did most of woodwork and spent a lot of cutting and time shaping, I the mechanical.  Your car will be fantastic when done.  frank
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on February 19, 2013, 01:04:56 AM
Thanks Frank.  I will be getting into the "cutting and shaping" real soon.  The top rear corner behind the passenger seat has some dry rot that I was just removing an hour ago.  It will be a challenging fix as the right rear corner sheet metal curves over the wood framing making it difficult to work.  Fortunately for me, my repair work will be hidden by the head liner and the fabric covering the rear corner and side.  I'll post some pics.  Fun, fun!!  
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on February 23, 2013, 04:39:46 AM
Well, the top wood repair continues.  Pretty much have the top bows done but have to do some work on the slats probably replacing some.  The top right rear corner (behind the passenger seat) is pretty much gone.  There are 5 separate pieces involved and 3 of those cannot be removed. Two of the 5 pieces will need to be completely remanufactured; the other 3 will need serious rebuilding.  So, repair and replacement will be challenging; I've been studying the parts and I think I have a preliminary idea how I will make an attempt at repair.  But it won't happen real quick...it will take time...if it all works.  We'll see.  Following are a few pics for your viewing pleasure!  Aren't you glad this isn't yours! :)  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: frankp on February 23, 2013, 03:52:31 PM
Kim - Quite the challenge, but know you're up to it!  Wish I was close enough to give you some assistance.  frank
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: SDGlenn on February 23, 2013, 06:27:05 PM
Looking good Kim, keep it up.  I just got to thinking, Can you imagine the workers that "Originally" built the framework for these cars, and the metal workers, to make it all fit so perfectly.  I would have loved to watch (and maybe learn from them) them on how to do this. Amazing people, Our forefathers. Probable with all hand tools too.  Just a thought, if you haven't thought of this before.  Drill holes for dowels to help "pin" the wood all together, probable be able to use some pretty good sized dowel in some places.
SDGlenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on February 23, 2013, 07:02:30 PM
Hi Frank and SDGlenn.  Yeah, Frank, I wish you were here to help, too.  Stuff always seems to go more than twice as fast with 2 people working on it.  And yes, Glenn, dowels were my thought too.  I'm going to make new pieces without the mortise and tenon and use dowels and glue to pin everything back together.  At least that's the plan.  Making the pieces to get a nice tight dry fit will be the challenge.  I want to get the wood work repair done, hopefully during the next month, so I can get on with some new and different (like axels, suspension, seals, and brakes).  I'm thinking about dropping both front and rear axels and springs off the frame to work on them.  What do you guys think?  That should make it easier to finish cleaning up the frame and painting it too. 
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: Old Man on February 26, 2013, 05:55:41 PM
Kim
Just a word about the repair of that corner. Do not try to duplicate exactly the original work using their 'tongue and grove' method. Use your own methods. I have been there and decided as time went on I was wasting my time learning old methods of master builders that was just slowing down my restoration and would never be seen. Just fill in the corner to the point where it is strong, it will not see anymore water or stress, and bring it to 'surface' so you can nail on the upholstery. That break in the roof side rail: I would just put the best carpenter's glue,read highest priced, in the break and put 3 or 4 #12 wood screws in it from the top or bottom. (I guess you've found out by now that all the screws have to have previously drilled holes for their bodies and their heads)From personal experience today's synthetic 'white' glues,actually the best I like is 'yellow', are impossible to separate once set. Impossible! I have tried to pull a joint apart and only succeded in breaking it somewhere else. And carpenter's glues are user friendly as they are 'water clean up' but 'water proof' when set.      
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on March 10, 2013, 04:45:15 AM
Hi all.  Sorry for the silence...my wife and I took off on a little vacation for a couple of weeks.  For the 'old man', yes, I do use wood glue whenever I can.  I'm a believer!  Presently I use Titebond II or III...the latter on this project.  First I dry fit the break to see if I can get it close to an acceptable fit, then I use the glue liberally, get it into all the crevices, then fit the pieces back together exactly, then clamp everything for at least several hours (generally much longer than necessary...that's just to make me more comfortable with the repair).  I'm sure many of you have done similar work...nothing new here.  Generally the repairs come out real good.  But I plan to glue strips of wood along both sides of each top bow in order to reinforce the wood.  The bows are especially vulnerable at their ends because half of the bow was cut away for the lap joint with the side wood beams.  There are several breaks in the bows at this location; the pictures show repair of one.  So, the wood work continues a little bit at a time.  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: Gary 30U on March 10, 2013, 07:00:06 AM
Doug, I'm like you just a little late with my thoughts.

Kim, Sorry I didn't get to this sooner.

An easy way to pull the engine, if your going to pull the transmission, is to also pull the flywheel and bell housing. This way there is nothing to  worry about with the steering column and Clum switch.

By the way it is easy to remove the Clum switch by just loosening the nut on the bottom,  which holds it onto the headlight switch shaft, and then loosen the side bolt on the trottle control arm, and the whole thing simple slides off the bottom of the shaft.

Just my thoughts.

Gary R., Happy
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on March 10, 2013, 08:04:36 AM
Hi Gary.  Yup...what you suggest is what I did with both the engine removal and clum switch.  Everything came out fine...a few of months ago!  :)  But thanks anyhow!  Kim
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: Old Man on March 10, 2013, 03:26:58 PM
You seem to have an inordinate amount of free time and money on your hands. Do you rob banks for a living? LOL
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on March 10, 2013, 05:23:57 PM
Hi OM!  Well, I am retired, so that accounts for the free time.  But I can't spend all my time and money in the garage do things that are fun for me...I have to take care of the one who takes care of me!  As they say, "happy wife, happy life!"  As for the inordinate amount of money...I wish that was so....then I would just be "helping" with this restoration work instead of struggling through much of it by my self!  :)   I save the $$ in order to do those things I don't have the knowledge and skills to do....I am envious of those "mechanics" on the forum that obviously can tackle any job on these old cars. The exchange of information via this forum has helped me a lot; it is a valuable "library" for 1st hand information.  By the way, I think you and I are about the same age and that ain't so old! :)
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 01, 2013, 03:03:08 AM
Well, work on repair and replacement of the wood in the top of my '29 business coupe (pic 1) continues but seems to be interrupted frequently so progress is real slow.  I pondered not replacing the top slats or only doing the ones that were badly split (pic 2) but I decided that the other wood repairs I want to do will be easier with the top slats out of the way.  So, they are coming out and I think it was the right decision.  Many of them need replacement.  Filling holes with toothpics continues; there are many more yet to do.  There is a 1/2 inch wide strip of thin metal (similar to plumber's strapping metal) that ran across the ends of the slats at the front and back (pic 2).  This strip was tacked down over the slat on either side of it to help hold it in place (the front of each slat was not tacked so this metal held the front ends in place; the back of each slat was tacked and covered by the metal tacked down on either side of the slat).  Lots of holes to fill!  I haven't been able to find a replacement for this flexible steel strapping.  I am considering replacing it with copper strapping.  I plan to use narrow crown steel staples to secure the wood slats and metal strap.  However, I was wondering if the contact of dissimilar metals may cause one or both metals to corrode quickly (galvanic action)?  Anybody have any thoughts?  The '35 Plymouth Deluxe Sedan in the background is my unrestored car that I will be driving to Tucson in 10 days.  Hope that goes well; it's over 900 mi one-way so hope the old girl can manage it!  So, work continues, but slowly.  But, it's spring!  Yea!!
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 01, 2013, 03:05:54 AM
Hmmmmmm....something happened to picture 1....off in the ether somewhere I suppose....or maybe "operator error".  Here's picture 1 for the previous post.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: SDGlenn on April 01, 2013, 05:57:02 AM
Hi Kim, I will look for you in Tucson, I should recognize the car anyhow.  I hope to get my 39 Roadking out of the  snow banks in time to take it down, but I will be there anyhow.  I like your "Ole Toys" on top your cupboard. You are getting right along with the top repair, you should probable stay home from Tucson and work on it. lol
Take care
SD Glenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: frankp on April 01, 2013, 04:44:32 PM
Kim,

Great progress.  I believe you are correct about not mixing metals.  Plumbers hang Cu pipes with Cu hangers.

Have a safe trip to Tucson.  Know you and SD Glenn will have a good time.

(Glenn - don't you need to find better shelter for your king?  sounds like the poor thing is being treated like a serf.  lol  My daily driver doesn't care for sitting outside all year either.)

frank
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 01, 2013, 05:19:29 PM
Hey Glenn and Frank.  Thanks for the feed-back.  I expect I will get little time to work on the '29 this week as I need to get the '35 and myself ready for the trip.  I noticed this weekend that a front headlight is out so that will be near the top of the list.  And a lube and oil change too.  Plus all the other little things to take care of before the road trip.  But I am looking forward to the caravan from the SF Bay area to Tucson with about 6-8 others and their cars.  Glenn, I am looking forward to meeting you.  I will likely be wearing a black baseball cap that has "Plymouth" across the front.  Hope I make it there and back with no car troubles...and you do too.  Have a good week, guys.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 03, 2013, 08:15:31 AM
Took some time out from getting the '35 ready for the Tucson road trip today to work some more on the top wood of the '29 coupe.  I finished removing the top slats today.  Many of the slats had splits and cracks so replacement seemed the right choice.  Besides, with the slats out of the way, repair of the rear right corner dry rot will be easier (but still difficult).  There are 15 slats from front to back across the top wood bows.  Each slat is 1/4" thick x 1 3/4" wide; I am going to mill new ones from poplar stock that I found and Home Depot; these are already planned to 1/4" thick x 6" wide x 48" long.  I'll be able to rip these down and get 3 from each.  Total cost for the poplar stock was about $40, but it saves me a lot of work planning thicker stock down and making lots of sawdust out of perfectly good boards.  I am uncertain what wood the original slats were made of but it was not oak.  The rest of the wood I've looked at closely in the cabin framing is oak.  The 4 top bows and 1" x 1" oak with some cracks and weak spots I've glued but they still need reinforcement.  So, the plan is to laminate 3/16" plywood to both sides of each top bow.  I think that will strengthen them enough.  Each slat was nailed to each cross bow with 2 "holdfast" nails and another 1 or 2 in each end (picture provided for any purists who want to do things like originally done).  Me, I'm going to use my pneumatic narrow crown stapler to fasten the new slats.  I took a picture of the slatless top but it may be hard to tell what is what because one is looking through the top and the car to stuff on the other side.  You can see I am continuing to fill nail holes  (toothpic carpentry).  I didn't finish that task 'cause I ran out of toothpics...that was a box of 250 each broken in half!!  That's a lot of filled holes.  Like I said, I think the old girl had her top off a few times...!!
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: chetbrz on April 03, 2013, 12:47:21 PM

Great Thread,

I hope to start on this in a year or two so this thread will save me many hours of thought.  Keep up the good work,

Chet...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: frankp on April 03, 2013, 04:42:45 PM
Hi Kim,

As you reinforce bows on each side, you may want to consider how this will affect installation of the headliner from the proportional perspective.  Attempting to say the spacing between front and 1st bow, back and last bow, and in between.  Not trying to be intrusive; you're doing a great job!

frank
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 03, 2013, 05:36:07 PM
Well, I hadn't thought about that.  I wonder if it will make a difference?  I was going to make the additional support pieces just slightly smaller (top to bottom measure) than the bows, then glue, clamp, and staple them.  The end result would be the original bow sandwiched between the 2 pieces of 3/16 plywood; so about 3/8" of wood would be added to each bow.  The other option I considered was to just make new bows but they are cut with a 1/2" "crown" in the middle...so they really are bowed up a bit.  My bandsaw is down and needs work so without a good way to cut the long curved pieces, I decided to reinforce the existing bows.  But now you've got me rethinking that.  Hmmmmm.......  How exactly do you think the headliner might be affected?  In my '29 it was just tacked to the bottom of the bows but maybe that was not the original method of attachment?  Let me know your thinking.  Thanks.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: frankp on April 03, 2013, 11:55:43 PM
My dad sewed a piece of material to the headliner from side to side for each bow.  This piece was then tacked to the side of the bows after drawing tight up, across (side to side), and to the next bow.  This may not have been original, but looks good.  If you see "tack" holes in the bows, that will show where headliner was attached and could lead to how.  I don't remember being around to help him with installation, but do recall the "tabs" he sewed.

The seam would only be offset by 3/16" and probably wouldn't make any visual difference; just trying to be helpful - not jerky.  One of the 4 pictures from our resto shows replacement of all slats, which I did.  I just don't remember the bows needing reinforcement, for some reason.

(Kim, I interpreted 3/4" vs 3/16 so please discount all this gibberish, but I did owe you an answer.)

frank
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 04, 2013, 12:33:05 AM
Thanks for the reply and info Frank.  I have no idea at this point how the replacement headliner is secured to the bows.  I think the tacks in mine might have been an attempt to put a sagging headliner back in place.  I don't think it would have come from the factory with tacks showing across the headliner.  I kept the old headliner so I will pull it out and see if I can figure this out.  At any rate, I don't think a little extra wood along the bows will change much, if anything.  I would hate to skip the reinforcement step and then have a bow crack or break after the new top is on!  Thanks for sending your thoughts along to me.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: SDGlenn on April 04, 2013, 05:57:37 AM
Hi Frank and Kim, You have a handle on the Top thing.  I would be totally lost about now. Sure glad it is not me. lol  I still can not get the 39 out of the snow bank. I reckon I will take the Mustang Convertible down to Tucson. It probable will mean a couple days off my drive time. lol  You are right Frank, that is the first time in 30 some years that the 39 has been left out in the weather, I have an enclosed trailer for the 29, at least that one is well taken care of. My garage was to busy this winter, even my new pickup had to set out side. Next winter it will be inside the garage, you betcha.
Take care ,
Glenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: frankp on April 04, 2013, 01:13:27 PM
Kim, good to have old headliner as a guide.  How's your engine coming along?

Glenn, I'm sure your 39 will forgive you.  Off topic, but we drove my 2003 horse convert to Ft Lauderdale last Oct for a wedding and it was great trip.  Only draw back, wife doesn't drive a stick.  Flew to Phoenix for son's wedding 3/23.  Weather was spectacular - low 80's, hard to come back to the tundra.  You will enjoy!

Safe motoring to all making this trip.  frank
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: Old Man on April 04, 2013, 05:02:34 PM
Any headliners I've been involved with had full width flaps sewed on their back sides and these flaps were tacked to the bows. These flaps were about 3" maybe slightly more in width. They were made out of the same wool based cloth as the headliner. In a sedan there was 2,sometimes 3, at the 1/3 and 2/3 position coming from back to front. This produced a line in the headliner right across from left to right that looks today like a fold. When the headliner was finished the headliner looked like it was in 3 panels. This was the common way of attaching the headliner to a wooden roof. The material is made out of taupe or gray colored wool. As far as I know they were the only 2 colors used. A Ford antique car outfit made the last one for me,taupe, using my old one as a pattern. Ford antique stores still have the material in bulk for Fords.  Originally they were put up soaking wet on the factory line. Literally taken out of a bucket of water. They were pulled up as taut as humanly possible,tacked, and then left to dry. The wool material shrunk and that was it. The reason the flaps were the same material was to pull the headliner vertically up tight at that point. If you ever have a sagging headliner today, you can 'repair' it by spraying it with a plastic spray bottle of deionized water you can buy at the grocery store in 4 litre jugs. Do not use tap water as you might stain the cloth. And use a new bottle rinsed out in the deionized water. The headliner will once again pull up taut. Does this answer any of your questions?   
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 04, 2013, 05:47:23 PM
To OM: thanks for the headliner info.  Now I for sure want to strengthen the bows by adding the plywood strips.  If that doesn't stiffen them enough, maybe I will end up replacing all of them.

To SDGlenn & Frank:  Hey guys, I too have a convertible Mustang ('67).  I am currently doing a "resto-mod" on it.  I don't want to pollute this Forum with Mustang chatter, but we have the makings of a "Secret Society" within the Plymouth Club! :) Maybe we can talk later via email.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: frankp on April 05, 2013, 08:11:18 PM
Old Man,

Great info on how headliner was installed.  According to POC, our color is light taupe.

frank
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 23, 2013, 04:04:27 AM
Well, today I got a good lick in on working on the top wood repair of the '29.  Finally made up my mind how I was going to go about it and started taking things apart.  I removed the top bows (4); laminating them with 1/8" plywood will be easier now.  Then I removed the heavy wood piece that supports the top rear of the cab above the rear window.  Had to use the sawzall to cut some wood screws that were installed before the sheet metal was applied so that was the only recourse.  That let me pull that piece out because the right end of it has rotted off.  This also exposed the sheet metal above the rear window making it easier to treat for rust and repaint.  Now, with the bows and rear beam gone (it supports the back end of the top slats), I have better access to the right rear corner where the dry rot is.  I'll post some pictures; it may take 2 posts.  At least I feel like I made some progress today, even if things are still being taken apart and not yet going back together! 
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 23, 2013, 04:06:57 AM
3 more pics to go with my previous post...
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 29, 2013, 10:25:22 PM
Well, some progress, but slow.  Milled one of the new wood pieces I need using a small table saw, a bench belt sander and a hand-held belt sander.  I am satisfied with the piece; I just haven't drilled the screw holes to secure it.  I am waiting to get everything together and then will dry fit the parts before making any necessary final modifications to the new replacement parts.  The 1/8" plywood strips are drawn on the sheet stock and ready to cut out but blade broke on the bench-top band saw so I have to make a trip to the store to find a new one.  I have 2 more parts to mill; maybe these will go a little faster now that I've got some experience with the finished one.  Not easy...nothing is square as the pictures show...lots of angles and compound curves.  But it's only wood for the concealed top structure so it doesn't have to be perfect, just solid enough to hold the fabric top in place and to provide base for attachment of the interior fabric.  I am attaching a picture of the completed piece (along with the matching piece from the left side and the rotted piece I'm replacing) and the next one to mill (along side the glued-up blank stock).  Life is good!  mc
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 30, 2013, 02:54:59 AM
Got the new band saw blade and cut out the large thick corner piece.  Tomorrow I will do some hand-held belt sander work on it to shape it then cut the mortise.  I am leaving the mortise end a little long for now until I fit the various pieces together.  I began to cut out the strips of 1/8" plywood that I will use to reinforce each side of each of 4 bows.  The cutting was going easily compared to the thick corner piece but even though I was being very careful not to stress the blade, it broke again.  That's 2 today...they are just such small blades....I'm not really surprised.  I've got one more and I hope I can finish the plywood strips....6 to go, each 4 ft long.  But, overall it was a good day...not a lot done but progress!
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: 1930 on April 30, 2013, 11:48:56 AM
If it helps than if the Plymouth construction was anything like Graham Brothers truck construction than all of the parts were hand fabricated using various jigs when necessary. My point is that no two pieces were absolutely identical and nothing was perfect.

I get where you are going with this because I have been there. I have had to learn and am still learning that nothing is perfect and good enough just has to be good enough if you want the car done in our lifetimes. From what I see everything you are doing is good enough and above.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on April 30, 2013, 04:01:03 PM
Thanks Jason.  I appreciate hearing from one that has been down this same laborious road.  I expect making the parts will be easier than putting everything together and making it all fit!  Gotta go....wife just told me we've got no water pressure so have to go see what's going on at the well....don't ya luv it!!
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on May 01, 2013, 08:33:31 PM
Here's the latest wood fix.  The back top bow was broken at one end right at the dado that fits in the side beam.  Initially, I glued it in place but didn't like the result so I removed the bow to make a better repair.  I was afraid that if I didn't fix it right or make a new bow, it might fail during or after a new top installation.  So, the glue joint seemed pretty tight (break visible in picture "bow end 5"), but I put 2 small dowels through the break into good wood on either side.  These, coupled with the 1/8" plywood re-enforcmnent I will soon attach to both sides of each bow, should make the bows much stronger as well as re-enforcing the weak spots.  It might have been easier to just cut out new bows but each is a different length and each has a "bow" (about 1/2"+ above level) at the center (in simple terms, they are curved).  Hope this isn't too much detail or that I'm boring all you that have done your restorations.   
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on May 02, 2013, 03:41:12 AM
I'm on a roll.  Got a couple of the bows laminated today.  Glued plywood strips to each side of a bow and then stitched them in place with 5/8" long narrow crown staples at 3" intervals the length of the bow.  That really stiffened them up and made the bow feel a lot more substantial.  After sanding one down I just had to fit it in the top; looks good.  Two more bows to laminate; made a simple jig to hold each one in place while I glue and staple the plywood strips.  You will notice several holes in the middle of one bow; the adjacent bow has the same holes.  I think those were probably to mount a block between the bows in order to mount a dome light in models other than a business coupe like mine.  But I am going to place a block between the bows because I may want to install a dome light someday even though this car didn't come with one originally.  Probably would have gotten more done but I ran out of glue.  So I spent the time figuring out how I'm going to make the next repair piece.  I want to get this wood repair done and get on to something new and different.
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: SDGlenn on May 08, 2013, 05:12:49 PM
Kim, Things are looking good. Congrates. We had a nice trip home from Tucson also, we hit a dirt storm also, not as bad as the one you got in, but it was hard to see for a while.  We followed "Old Route 66" for quite a ways Then we hit a snow storm again,  from Colorado Springs to Fort Collins where they closed the highway. lol  We still made it home. lol And it is good to be home.  We met a lot of real nice people at Tucson and I will sure remember that trip for a long time. Hope we meet up again one of these days.  I had the 29 out for a cruise Monday, and had a new Exhaust System installed, coming home the cab filled with smoke and smoke coming out from under the hood, the wire from the Generator burned up. The cutout shorted out.  They don't make a cutout anymore that even looks like an original, and those are in the $100 dollar range, so I am still working that one out, I may have to see if I can fix the short in this one. lol
Take care.
SDGlenn
Title: Re: I need some advise...
Post by: kimmc on May 19, 2013, 08:22:19 PM
Well, work on making the replacement wood pieces has been sporadic but I've finished that part.  Now I have to take out some shallow dents in the sheet metal in the upper right rear corner before I install the wood parts.  Once the wood is in, I won't be able to get at the metal behind the new pieces.  I am showing the separate new pieces below; I've had to make modifications from the original in order to fit the replacement parts to the good wood that remained after I cut out the dry rot.  I've also included the only two original pieces that came out in bits but I was able to glue them back together for at least partial patterns.  The parts pictured include 3 pieces that will fit in the curved corner; a long piece that extends from the L side to the R side across the back of the cab (the top gets tacked to this piece); 1 of the 4 top bows that I re-inforced with plywood strips along each side; and a couple of the new top slats (and an old one).  The top slats were cut from 1/4" T x 5 1/2" W x 48" L pre-cut poplar that I found at Home Depot; I was able to cut 3 of the 1 3/4" wide slats from each stock piece.  I made 15 slats for about $2 each.  I will install the corner wood pieces after I complete the little body work.  But I plan not to install the top bows and slats until later; I think it may be better to have that top hole left open while I tackle some of the other work.