28Q29U Plymouth Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: racertb on January 10, 2012, 04:21:16 AM

Title: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on January 10, 2012, 04:21:16 AM
As many of you know, I recently did some work to my '29 roadster (new blackwall tires, etc.) to get it ready to show last Thanksgiving in Ormond Beach; I even posted several photos from the show.  I had the car trailored down, so it was not driven much.  Even from the hotel to the show, it was only a couple of miles and the issue not really noticeable.  Well, here is the issue.  If you remember, I got new u-joint discs that I was going to install.  I attempted to install them at the time, but couldn't get them to compress for the life of me (I only worked with the REAR discs and never touched the front).  I ended up putting the old (rear) discs back on.  I also adjusted the emergency brake at the time as well...

Here is the problem:

1. I have a bad drivetrain vibration that was never there before I "messed" with the discs.  I occurs around 20-25mph and gets worse the faster I go.

2. There is a "ticking" sound that comes from the transmission that is most evident when I engage the clutch while the car is in gear; it goes away when I shift into neutral

I think I may have done something wrong when putting the original discs back on and after adjusting the e-brake.  Something is just not right.

Again, this never was a problem before I tried to replace the rear discs and adjust the e-brake...help!




Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: wellery on January 10, 2012, 05:36:39 AM
Racertb

It sound like the vibration is coming from the tail shaft as it is out of balance, as the discs over the years have bedded down (did u but them back in the way they came out – aligning the original holes and same bolts, as well as placement on the rear plate?).

The noise from the gear box when in gear is the strain from the tail shaft being loaded up and sending the vibration down the main shaft of the gear box thus putting that strain through the whole gear box.

It should be a relatively easy fix – If you can answer the above questions we can get down to a fix– If I may suggest I wouldn’t drive her at the moment as you are liable to have something go in the box as it sounds she under a bit of stress.

Hope this makes sense and is of help

Cheers

Wayne
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on January 10, 2012, 04:16:20 PM
Thanks Wayne...I did put the discs back together exactly the same way - it was easy to see how they fit back together the way they were "molded" and slightly curved in places.  It was almost like putting a puzzle together; I also put the washers in between the layers as well.

When I reinstalled, I thought I was pretty careful about tightening the bolts in sequence (like a tire, like you mentioned in an earlier post).  What you said above makes sense and I'm sure the problem is in this area (tailshaft) of the car since this is the only thing I worked on under the car (other than the emergency brake).

I doubt I bent the drive shaft in any way, so the discs/tailshaft has got to be the issue like you said.  I don't plan on driving the car until I get this fixed.

Any ideas at this point?
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: wellery on January 11, 2012, 06:26:27 AM
Hi

Do you have any photos as it looks now?

Did you remove the shaft completely from the car - front and rear and did you try new bolts?

When you tried to install the new ones would they still take up with one missing of the discs missing?

Sorry a bit hard when you cant touch and feel it and I am 8000 miles away


Cheers

Wayne
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: Tinkeys on January 11, 2012, 02:20:53 PM
The ticking sound could be coming from hand brake drum, when turning and if there is not enough clearance the brake band moves a little in the side suports, another thing to check is flange nut is tight on end of gearbox also diff flange.
Try using longer bolts for new disks as well !
cheers Tony.
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on January 11, 2012, 11:50:36 PM
Never took out the drive shaft, only worked on the rear discs.  I could never get the new ones to compress enough...did not try two, but it looked like too much space when I put two up there.  I had to replace one of the bolts (one got stripped) , the rest were the original.   I could get longer bolts, but I guess I would need to drill holes for cotter pins.  I looked for longer bolts before with pre-drilled holes, but couldn't find them.

I know this is hard when you can't see it in person...I appreciate the help though!

Ted
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: SDGlenn on January 12, 2012, 02:11:08 AM
If I remember right, I had a simular problem when I done a bit of work on my drive disks. I found one of the bolts (that hold the disks) was clicking on a bolt (or something) on the 3rd member. Check to see if there is enough clearance there. Hope you find it soon without it driving you nuts. lol
SDGlenn
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: Gary 30U on January 13, 2012, 11:46:29 PM
I know there is very little clearance between the front of the yoke and the back of the transmission. I had trouble there when I did my car.  If I remember you have to have the bolts with the heads toward the rear,becuase if you tighten to much the bolts will pull through enough to hit the back of transmission case.

Just something to look at.

Gary
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: Tinkeys on January 14, 2012, 01:12:01 AM
Gary is correct I did the same thing ! Front and rear I used high tensile bolts and drilled wire holes or use nyloc nuts .it did work fine then made edapters and put in a modern tail shaft for everyday use ' original can be put back at any time .
There is less rotating friction with cross universals.
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on January 14, 2012, 07:13:19 PM
I'll check the bolt clearance - I'm pretty sure it's ok - but the ticking sound seems to be coming from the shifter/transmission area.
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: Tinkeys on January 24, 2012, 09:05:21 AM
Another possibility is speedo drive in gearbox ,
I did not mine skipping a little when back of car jacked up of ground  and running in gear.
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on February 13, 2012, 02:15:44 AM
Well I got the car totally off the ground and up on jackstands...got it running in 1st gear as I looked underneath to see if I could see any obvious vibration, hoping I would.  And there it was, it was very obvious how much the driveshaft was bouncing around under there because something just wasn't right.  It look like the driveshaft was warped!

Now I'm sure the problem is with the discs, since that's what I messed with, yet only the rear ones.  So, I will be getting some longer lag bolts, drilling holes for the cotter pins and installing the new discs that I had bought.  Hopefully that will help (never had the issue before!).  Before I attempt the front discs, I'll see what happens after just doing the rears...if that goes well, I'll tackle the fronts.

I didn't think those things (discs) could be that sensative...I'm assuming the old ones are well worn and when I put them back on, I must have done something wrong...

If there's anything else I need to know about this project, please let me know!

Thanks...
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: chetbrz on February 13, 2012, 01:53:07 PM
The disks are supposed to flex to compensate for differences.  You didn’t by any chance bolt the metal driveshaft to the metal differential drive.  Sorry I had to ask and I am not even sure if that is possible.  

Ok.., here is something more realistic.  The driveshaft should be on an arc tangent with the differential.  If the differential has shifted or twisted on it’s spring mounts this might possibly create the excessive wobble.

Chet...
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on February 13, 2012, 04:55:37 PM
Now you've got me thinking on how I bolted it up...On the three arms with bolt holes coming off the differential, should they or should they not bolt up to the three arms with bolt holes on the drive shaft???  I did it that way, "metal to metal"...I swear that's that way it was, but now you have me thinking...maybe this is why I had the problem earlier with getting the bolts to back in???

If I screwed up, sounds like it's an easy fix now...do you have a photo to compare on how it should be?
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: chetbrz on February 13, 2012, 05:25:12 PM

No.., It should not be metal to metal.  The purpose of bolting to the disks is to allow for a little give in the joint.  The arms should straddle each other.  Sorry I don't have a picture.  Look at the connection on the transmission.  Unless that one is also incorrect ???

Chet...
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on February 13, 2012, 08:36:51 PM
Chet...sounds like you fixed my problem (I hope!).  So, just to be clear, the arms on the driveshaft and the arms on the differential are to alternate or overlap with one another and NOT line up with each other like it looks like I have done???

I never did anything to the fronts, but the problem was never there before...however, I have the discs to do both front and rear so I might as well do both now.

Thanks for your help...I will get to it this coming weekend (hopefully) and let you know what happens!

Ted
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: chetbrz on February 13, 2012, 08:54:30 PM
So, just to be clear, the arms on the driveshaft and the arms on the differential are to alternate or overlap with one another and NOT line up with each other like it looks like I have done???

Ted

Ted,   

That is correct.., the arms should not be bolted directly together.  The disks provide the connection and allow for off center flexibility in the drive train.   This was probably why the bolts seemed to be to short when you assembled the rear disks the first time.

Good Luck, Chet…
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on February 19, 2012, 12:40:19 AM
Should all 6 bolts for the rear discs be identical in size and all have a hole for a cotter pin?
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on February 19, 2012, 07:14:52 PM
The attached photo is what I have to work with...the 3 bolts on the left are the only 3 that have holes for cotter pins and castle nuts.  The other fasteners is what else I came up with (similar to what else was on there, but worked!).  I assume that ALL bolts should have cotter pins and castle nuts like my front/transmission side has???

Also, I only have the 8 buckle washers for the rear...that's what was there...looking at the front side, looks like there are more visible...

(3 new discs shown/new front discs not in photo)



(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad320/racertb/IMG-20120219-002331.jpg)
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: SDGlenn on February 20, 2012, 03:55:54 AM
You sure are having a problem with that one, lol.  When I took mine apart (front and rear) and started to put it back together I found I only had enough buckel washers for one set.  After much cleaning and hunting I did find 1 buckel washers for each castle bolt and nut. So I ended up with the right amount. I think you need to have one on each disk hole that has the bolt head through, six per each end of the drive shaft should do it.  Thats the way I remember it anyway. lol
SDGlenn
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on February 20, 2012, 04:59:16 AM
I think I've got enough to work with and make it work...will have to drill out 3 more bolts and get a few more castle nuts...It should go back together better than it was!  (fingers crossed!)

 :o
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: 29UJohn on March 07, 2012, 05:14:08 AM
Chet is right.  No metal to metal, so the fabric disks allow the shafts to flex.  Also, don't use any lock washers.  They will not work for this application, as the disks will compress over time and the lockwashers will loosen up.  Better to get a machine shop to drill the holes for you and use cotter pins.  Most castle nuts you buy will be grade 2, which is really not good.  If it were mine, I would have some grade 5 nuts made into castle nuts, and also use grade 5 bolts.  These bolts and nuts were not graded back then, but they used very good ones, somewhere between modern grade 5 & 8.  As for the buckle washers, just replace the missing ones with similar sized large washers.  I did that for a long time with no problem, until I found some spares off an old parts car.  If you really want more buckle washers, I can look around, I may have a few spares left, but not many.
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on April 11, 2012, 06:04:33 PM
Thanks John...by the way, I got your email and replied with some photos.  Just concerned about the clearance with 3 of the bolts facing the rear toward the differential.  The end of those are very close to making contact and the clearance seems to be 1/8".  For what it's worth, all the bolts are the same length (2 3/4") like the originals that came out.  I tried to reverse the 3 in question and make them forward facing, but I can't seem to make that work. 
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on April 11, 2012, 06:36:23 PM
Here's a few photos of what I've got right now...this may change by the end of the day:


(NOTE - cotter pins are not in yet until I'm comfortable with the set up...)


(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad320/racertb/OrangePark-20120409-00005.jpg)

(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad320/racertb/OrangePark-20120409-00004.jpg)

(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad320/racertb/Middleburg-ClayHill-20120409-00002.jpg)
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: kimmc on April 11, 2012, 06:53:09 PM
Hey guys.  I'm getting ready to re-do my discs too but haven't disassembled them yet.  I didn't realize the buckle washers are placed between the discs (as shown in racertb pics); I can't tell from John's pics if the buckle washers are between the discs or beneath the bolt head.  What's the right arrangement?  After reading all this I'm going to take notes when I disassemble mine.  Thanks all.  Kim
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: chetbrz on April 12, 2012, 01:08:29 AM

When I did mine the buckle washers were between every disk and also behind the bolts that came in direct contact with the disks.   If you are short on buckle washers my guess would be to use what you have between the disks and flat on the outsides. 

Basically put it together the same way it comes apart and you should be golden.

Chet...
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on April 12, 2012, 02:34:54 AM

When I did mine the buckle washers were between every disk and also behind the bolts that came in direct contact with the disks.   If you are short on buckle washers my guess would be to use what you have between the disks and flat on the outsides. 

Basically put it together the same way it comes apart and you should be golden.

Chet...



That's what I did...I used what I had in between and flats on the outside.  At the front of my driveshaft, the buckle washers are behind the bolt heads (against the discs) and I assume there are some on the inside.  I have a feeling the front of mine has never been touched.

If you look at my photos, I still have some concern about the claerance of the bolts facing the rear...any thoughts?
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: chetbrz on April 12, 2012, 03:28:26 AM


That's what I did...I used what I had in between and flats on the outside.  At the front of my driveshaft, the buckle washers are behind the bolt heads (against the discs) and I assume there are some on the inside.  I have a feeling the front of mine has never been touched.

If you look at my photos, I still have some concern about the claerance of the bolts facing the rear...any thoughts?

Why don't you reverse the bolt so the nuts are on the opposite side.  That would give you more clearance.

Chet...
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: Gary 30U on April 12, 2012, 05:17:03 AM
Chet is correct. The bolts (with a washer) should go from the front toward the rear to provide the necessary clearance to the transmission bolts.

Gary
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on April 12, 2012, 01:42:43 PM
I agree.  All nuts should be on the inside or facing forward toward the drive shaft.   That is the way it is on the front joint - nuts facing rearward toward the drive shaft.   I tried that and can't seem to get the bolts in that way so I put them in the way you see it.   I thought about shorter 2 1/2 bolts as opposed to the 2 3/4 bolts like the originals I have.  I will try again.

Does anyone have a photo they can show that shows their set up so I can see the clearance?
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: Doug on April 12, 2012, 04:43:43 PM
Not the best picture, But to my knowledge it has never been apart 
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on April 13, 2012, 12:29:20 AM
Doug - can you take a photo of the back side?  Between the differential and the drive shaft?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: Doug on April 13, 2012, 12:45:54 AM
I have closed the shop for the day but I will do it in the AM. But I can already tell you that my bolts look like yours. I don't think you can get it together any other way.
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: chetbrz on April 13, 2012, 01:03:05 AM
Doug - can you take a photo of the back side?  Between the differential and the drive shaft?

Thanks!

Camera angle can be incredibly deceiving.  Doug’s picture looks like there is plenty of room to spare and in your pictures the position looks very close.  I would think that if you could place a ¼” shim between the bolts then you should have more then enough space between the points of possible contact.  When I did mine I don’t remember any concerns about clearance between bolts and the differential assembly.  On a rotational axis 1/8” would be more then enough clearance.  There is no way you would drive with a pinion shaft wobbling at 1/32 of an inch without feeling the pain and noise of the vibration.

My thoughts, I hope this helps,  Chet…
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: 29UJohn on April 13, 2012, 03:52:28 AM
Ted,
    I believe you have it set up correctly.  I have a large original lubrication chart that shows the chassis (like the one in the middle of the Instruction Book, only larger) and it shows the bolts installed the way you have them.  I installed mine incorrectly with the nuts all in the rear because that was how they were when I bought my car.  Although the clearance is close, I have never had any problems.  
   As for the buckle washers, the Master Parts Book lists 42 in all, which indicates they were between and on both sides of each disk.  I do not know why they need to be on the spider flange side though.  Since I was short some buckle washers, I used flat washers on each outside (i.e., next to the bolt heads and the nut) until I was able to find some extra ones.
   If you drive the car a lot, eventually you will have to tighten the nuts.  After several years I had to add washers so that the cotter pins would line up properly with the castellated nuts.  Recently I installed all new disks, in which case I did not need any extra washers. (The picture I had was of the older worn disks, before I replaced them with new ones.)
   On page 47 of the Instruction Book is the section on Universal Joints.  It recommends the nuts "be kept tight at all times and inspection of this is recommended at intervals of about every 5000 miles."   
  John
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: Doug on April 13, 2012, 02:39:16 PM
Here is another view. There may be more clearance than you have but like Chet says, a washer would make up the difference. That joint doesn't flex much. 
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on April 13, 2012, 08:26:11 PM
Thanks everyone...last night I put an extra washer behind each bolt head that comes in contact with the discs.  For what it's worth, they were "hardened" washers that I found at Lowe's and these are also what I used in between the discs where I did not have a buckle washer.  When I ran the car in gear at different speeds while it was on jack stands, there was no vibration whatsoever while out of the car observing the driveshaft in motion.

With the addition of the extra washers, it gave me a little more clearance than before...it looks to be about 1/8"-1/4" of an inch.  This makes me feel a little more comfortable.  I installed the all the castle nuts and put in the cotter pins.  I'll let you know how it works out on the road!
Title: Re: Gentlemen, I've got a problem
Post by: racertb on April 14, 2012, 03:52:12 AM
Took the car out today for a run...Wow...it has never driven smoother!  Must have gotten it right along with the new tires (installed in the fall).  It felt like I could have driven comfortably anywhere...thanks everyone for their help!

However, another issue arose...now the car is overheating after a couple of miles...looked like a locomotive coming home  I guess it never ends!