28Q29U Plymouth Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SteveG on March 30, 2014, 08:57:28 PM

Title: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on March 30, 2014, 08:57:28 PM
I am rewiring my '28 and need a question answered. Sometimes I get confused by wiring.

Got it all done. Except I have a question about how and where to attach the wire from the ignition switch on to the distributer.

Does it attach to the same screw used to connect the coil into the distributer?

SteveG
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: imoore on March 30, 2014, 10:02:35 PM
Hi steve
From ign switch it goes straight to the coil then out of the coil to distributor.
Well this is how mine is wired but not to sure about the ignition-coil-lock setup.  i would believe the coil wire would go striaght to the distributor.
There is a good little diagram in the owners manual.

Ian
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: racertb on March 31, 2014, 04:08:24 AM
Can you show us which wire you're talking about?
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: chetbrz on March 31, 2014, 01:21:14 PM

For the 1929 Plymouth, One side comes from your Amp meter and the other to the distributor.  see diagram.

(http://www.1948plymouth.info/1929/images/1929%20Wiring%20Dig-01.jpg)

Consider the points a switch that turns the coil on/off.  This on/off action creates the spike that fires the spark plugs.

Chet...
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on March 31, 2014, 07:10:33 PM
I'm talking about wire #33.

My '28 has a single terminal coil so this part of the picture is slightly different from your the '29 wiring diagram.

 #33 goes directly from the ignition switch to the same terminal, on the distributer, as the condenser. There is a small piece of rubber on the screw to insolate the condenser and ignition wires from the distributer body.

Does that seem correct?

Steve G 
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: chetbrz on March 31, 2014, 10:23:42 PM

Do you have a separate ignition switch and coil.  On the 29 they are a one in the same unit.  I would assume the 28 is similar but I have not seen a 28 ignition setup.
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: Old Man on April 01, 2014, 01:25:00 AM
I believe '28,'29 and 30' all have the coil and switch integral in the dash. I used to sell a square printed plate to replace the ignition switch paper sticker,"on,off,ignition",which always went 'south' and I remember it fit all 3 years. ('31 PA was the first to have the coil sticking out 1/2 way through the firewall into the engine compartment.) As you said Chet the points are simply a switch that switches the coil current on and off. The moving point is always connected to the terminal on the side of the distributor and the condenser/capacitor's pigtail/flying lead goes there as well. Then the 'bottom' of the coil winding goes there as well and that wire then goes back into the cockpit and on to the coil assembly under the dash. There has to be one more wire to connect the coil to current. It's usually 'hot wired' to the one fuse in the car not very far away from the coil. And of course you have the high tension lead coming out from under the dash and going through the firewal and connecting to the distributor's top. The Kettering system,as it was called, is always connected this way. Stationary point to ground, moving point to distributor side connector,condenser on the moving point connector,one side of the coil to this connector,other terminal on coil to battery current,sometimes through a switch,sometimes not. The trick with this system was it could not be switched on without a key or hot wired. To steal the car you would have to bring your own coil. I often wonder if this deterred thefts with these cars.           
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 01, 2014, 10:48:15 PM
I think I got now.

 I will run a wire from the ignition switch to the single terminal on the back of the coil and then, of course, the coil wire to the center of the distributer.

Another wire will then be run from the ignition switch to the distributer, and connect it along with the condenser wire, thru the distributor, to the
points. ( being careful to insolate the wires from the distributer bod.)

I'm finding out it is a lot easier to do it then putting it into words!

I think this should work. If you don't hear from me.................... it blew up!

Thank you all,

SteveG
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: Old Man on April 02, 2014, 03:17:11 PM
Just one last kick at it. I found this basic diagram on the net. This is the Kettering system used on all vehicles for 60 or more years. At least until the capacitive discharge very high voltage transistorized systems we now have that started in the 70s. The Kettering system I swear is a copy of Marconi's spark discharge transmitter used in his wireless telegraphy system of the early 1900s which predated modern radio. If you replace the points with a telegrapher's key, you have his transmitter. This why you can 'hear' your ignition firing in your car's radio,even a nearby radio, if the system isn't properly shielded. The coil is the 'inductor' and the condenser is the 'capacitor' of the 'tank circuit' in the antenna circuit of Marconi's transmitter that set the frequency of the wavelength.  If you were to hook up a branch of the high voltage lead coming from the top of your coil to an antenna, you would have Marconi's spark transmitter and obliterate your neighbors tv and radio reception. All our cars and trucks regardless of make or model use this diagram in some form. If you've ever seen that ignition waveform that mechanics looked at on a Sun Analyzer, the frequency of it was set by the inductance and the capacitance of the coil and condenser. Same as Marconi's transmitter. So I've often wondered if Charles Kettering of DELCO copied Marconi's transmitter circuit but did not give Marconi any credit???  Just an old man rambling.     
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 02, 2014, 05:30:17 PM
Old Guy,

Interesting read!

My coil has only one screw on the back of the coil. So the wiring will be little different, as stated on my last post.

Do you tend to agree?

Thanx for the help.

SteveG
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: chetbrz on April 02, 2014, 07:01:24 PM
Steve,

Your coil has to have another connection point somewhere probably from the key switch assembly if they are one and the same.  A picture of the coil assy. would help.

OLDMAN  FYI

It is true that technology assists invention.  The spark coil goes back to experiments by Tesla in the 1800’s.  The spark at the plug point is created by the collapsing field when the coil is opened.  Voltage is defined as = Change in Magnetic flux / Change in time.  Voltage in the collapsing field = Delta fe/t  when the switch is opened voltage is driven to infinity because you are dividing by  t = zero.   This gives you the momentary spike near 10,000 volts with minimum current that you see at the plug.  I can go on for hours about radio.  BTW… the coil actually has two windings which aids the step-up of the output voltage spike.  I think this is what Kettering added or used to perfection.

It is sometimes referred to as a Tesla Coil

Update before rebuttal:

I guess to be really accurate you need to go back to the early 1830’s and Michael Faraday and Joseph Henry.  Both are attributed with the laws of induction.  I personally always equated the distributor coil to Tesla but Tesla's device maintained the transient in resonance.  Just goes to show that things build on other discoveries.  Without these guys Marconi would be making pizza.   Sorry for the regression, I landed my first job as a field engineer explaining induction about 40+ years ago to a hiring panel.  Just had to chime in.

Chet…
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 03, 2014, 05:27:12 AM
Chet & Old Man and all of you for all the good input.

Sometimes I dislike computers, but where else could I find all this info. for my old Q!

My coil has one terminal in the back that connects to the ignition switch. The other end is the high tension (spark) wire that goes to the center of the distributor.

Too beat tonight to take a pic. If you want a pic I'll send one, but there is only one connection on the back.

I'll hook it all up as soon as work stops interrupting me. Making a living has a tendency of doing that! Whine, wine.

I think it will work. I'll let you know if it works or blows up.

SteveG

ps- thank for sharing all the knowledge, although some of it was above my old wore out head!
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 07, 2014, 12:07:31 AM

Do you have a separate ignition switch and coil.  On the 29 they are a one in the same unit.  I would assume the 28 is similar but I have not seen a 28 ignition setup.

Well I hooked it all up and the fuse blew.

I hate to be a PITA, but my car has a separate ignition and coil. The coil has only one screw on the back and a high tension wire on the front.

I have wired the car exactly like the diagrams posted, except for the ignition part.

Here's what I got;

1. A hot from the amp. meter to one side of ignition switch.

2. A hot from the other side of the ign. switch to the one terminal of the coil. Then the high tension to the distributer.

3. A hot from the ign. to the generator relay.

The advice and diagrams were great, but the single wire coil and separate ignition switch are throwing me for a loop!

Can someone can give me a step by step instruction or specific drawing of this part of the wiring?

I am Stumped.

SteveG

   
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: Old Man on April 07, 2014, 12:39:35 AM
The only way we'll solve this is for you to give us either a very good 3D type sketch of what you have or photos. You are supposed to have a 'one piece' ignition system. The key is supposed to go into the 'rear' of the assembly and close the current to the coil windings inside. (This is the theft proof feature.) It gets it's current from one screw/post on the side (if I remember right) and the remaining screw/post goes to the distributor. And the high voltage lead to the distributor cap. That's it. Que sera sera. It sounds to me like you do not have the original Atwater Kent ignition setup. You should have a 'square' black plate mounted in a hole in the dash,with a thin chrome surround, with "on,off,ignition and lock" printed in white on a paper sticker on the face of the plate. Do you have this? This was the setup for '28,'29 and '30. (In '31 the ignition switch and coil were separated,never to be one piece again.)     
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: chetbrz on April 08, 2014, 03:23:35 AM
Hi Steve,

If you review the diagram that the Old Man provided it is not beyond the realm of possibility that power could be applied somehow or somewhere to the casing of the coil.  Clutching at straws here.., that is why a picture of what you have is so very important.   If you have trouble posting the picture email it.

(http://www.1948plymouth.info/28Q29U/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=862.0;attach=3071)

Old Man, great diagram.

Chet...
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 08, 2014, 04:25:58 AM
Hi Steve,

If you review the diagram that the Old Man provided it is not beyond the realm of possibility that power could be applied somehow or somewhere to the casing of the coil.  Clutching at straws here.., that is why a picture of what you have is so very important.   If you have trouble posting the picture email it.

(http://www.1948plymouth.info/28Q29U/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=862.0;attach=3071)

Old Man, great diagram.

I agree, the diagram is great is great, it is simple, and I understand it.

The difference is my coil only has one terminal. and it is mounted thru a big whole in the firewall. Maybe the case is grounded to the frame thru the firewall.

It worked that way since I bought it.

I do not have a scanner and I think the only way I can email it is to take a pic of a sketch.

I am going to try a couple of other ways to hook it up and then try to get a sketch posted somehow.

I'LL be back!

SteveG

Chet...
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 08, 2014, 05:37:19 AM
Here's the drawing of the area I'm having trouble with.

SteveG


Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 08, 2014, 05:40:00 AM
Sorry - too small to read.

I'll try again.
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 08, 2014, 05:45:31 AM
Biggest I can do.

I'll have to try something else tomorrow.

SteveG
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: chetbrz on April 08, 2014, 01:24:47 PM
Steve,

You are missing something and this is keeping us from helping you and its keeping you from solving the problem.  Without seeing what you are missing we will never come up with a solution.  Please send a picture of the coil from both sides (front of the firewall & back of the firewall) and a picture of the distributor looking down on it with the distributor cap off.  This picture should also show how the capacitor is wired.  A manufactures name on the coil would also be helpful for research.   

The distributor should be providing an on/off function to the coil to allow it to charge then release charge when spark is needed to fire the plug.  We need to figure out how this is being accomplished than we can fix your problem. 

Have you seen this motor running before you took it apart ?

See picture below.

(http://www.1948plymouth.info/1929/images/Distributor01.jpg)
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 08, 2014, 06:33:50 PM
Thank you for sticking with me with this problem,

Here's the pics.

SteveG
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 08, 2014, 08:12:10 PM
Holy cow!

There are two terminals on the coil. DUH!

So maybe power goes to the terminal on the back. And from the front terminal to the condenser?

Still confused, but I think we're getting someplace.

SteveG
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: frankp on April 08, 2014, 08:28:14 PM
By Jove, I think you've got it!! 

Yes, I would wire the coil terminal inside/under dash to the key/ignition and the terminal in the engine compartment to your insulated distributor terminal.  That will put everything in series.

frank
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 08, 2014, 09:00:42 PM
Gotcha!

I'll do it this afternoon. As soon as I buy some more 20Amp. fuses.

I think we are almost there.

To where do I connect the generator relay?

SteveG
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: frankp on April 08, 2014, 10:01:17 PM
SteveG,

A wire is connected from the other (2nd) terminal of the ammeter to one side of the relay.  The wire from the generator is connected to the other relay terminal.  When the generator is charging, it will register on the ammeter moving the needle to the right.

Note the fuse is not in this circuit.  The fuse protects all of the lamps and the horn.

You'll be running in no time.

frank
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: Old Man on April 09, 2014, 03:15:32 PM
Now I see the problem. This has been a discussion of apples and oranges. Somebody mounted the coil through the firewall. This isn't the early 4 cylinder ignition setup. A picture sure is worth a thousand words!! I agree with frankp that the terminal inside the engine compartment should go to the distributor and the cockpit side terminal should go to your ignition switch. This will finally start and run the engine.
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 09, 2014, 08:52:32 PM
SteveG,

A wire is connected from the other (2nd) terminal of the ammeter to one side of the relay.  The wire from the generator is connected to the other relay terminal.  When the generator is charging, it will register on the ammeter moving the needle to the right.

Note the fuse is not in this circuit.  The fuse protects all of the lamps and the horn.

You'll be running in no time.

frank


Eureka!

Wired up as suggested and the old gal sprung to life!

I'll put back the dash and be on the road this afternoon.

Thank you all for the help.

A special thank you to Frank and Old Man.

Another adventure with 'Ole Amelia.

SteveG
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: frankp on April 10, 2014, 02:08:54 AM
Great news!   Now, about those brakes......   frank
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 10, 2014, 04:48:43 AM
Great news!   Now, about those brakes......   frank

Frank - Luckily the previous owner had the brake system rebuilt.

I am now going to hook up the head lights. I hope the rotary switch at the bottom of the steering column still works. I'm not sure which terminals the three head light wires go to (hint, hint?)

Sorry or pushing the envelope.

SteveG

 
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: imoore on April 10, 2014, 11:00:10 AM
There is a drawing in the technical information section  on the headlight circuit
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: chetbrz on April 10, 2014, 01:07:44 PM
Steve,

When working with these old cars and especially the old wiring there are two basic issues that you will run across.  First, poor and deteriorating insulation of your old wiring leading to short circuits.   Second, corrosion at switch and contact points leading to high resistance at these points which results in very dim or what appears to be nonworking lights or accessories.
 
If you are not familiar with DC circuits and wiring it might save you a great deal of time if you google “Understanding DC circuits”.  Knowing the practical relationship between resistance, voltage, & current will save you hours of project time.

An example.

http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/dc_circuits.htm#.U0Z5rHJOXDc

I hope this helps,

PS... As previously mentioned, check the Tech Section for the switch wiring diagram.

Chet…
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: frankp on April 10, 2014, 06:33:18 PM
How my '29 is wired:  The CLUM switch terminals are numbered 1 - 3 - 2 - 4 - 6 - 5 from the engine to fender in the picture.

1 - Green 39 Battery (-),  Red 25 Brake Lamp Switch

3 - Brown 42 Parking Lamps

2 - Black 40 Horn,  Black 24 Horn Button through shaft

4 - Red 43 Head Lamp Low Beam

6 - Black 44 Head Lamp High Beam

5 - Black 11 Tail Lamp

The Light Control Lever set up:

6 o'clock position is off

5 o'clock Parking

7 o'clock Low Beam

8 o'clock High

I hope this isn't confusing.  frank
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 10, 2014, 06:39:42 PM
Thank you!

It doesn't look confusing at all.

I get back with the results.

SteveG
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: frankp on April 10, 2014, 07:55:34 PM
Additional info: as best as I can see, in the headlamp connection the Bakelite is numbered 1, 2, and 3.  I used 1 for brown, 2 for black, and 3 red.  The order doesn't matter as long as the wire colors are carried through to the correct lamp fixture within each Headlamp.
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 10, 2014, 10:28:36 PM
I wired the lights up and they work.

Your directions were perfect.

It appears the Clum switch is a little different then your '29.  My '28 has only 5 terminals .There is no horn terminal and is wired directly up the steering column to the button. The '28 has a Maxwell engine and Chrysler probably changed it for '29. Just guessing.

I was unable to hook up the tail and brake light because the "push" on terminal on the master cylinder is missing.

The good news is that the car is running great and the head lights work.

Thank you and all the guys who took the time & patience to help me out. GREAT SITE!

SteveG 
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: frankp on April 11, 2014, 04:20:15 PM
SteveG,  The tail lamp should be illuminated with the head lamps and parking.  The brake light circuit is separate and is dependent on the brake light switch.

Appreciate your progress updates.   frank
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: SteveG on April 19, 2014, 01:45:42 AM
Perfect!

Thanks for all the great advise.

The wiring all works like it should.

SteveG
Title: Re: Wiring Question
Post by: frankp on April 19, 2014, 07:27:39 PM
Good for you.  Just in time for the Easter parade!   frank