Author Topic: New Wood Wheel problem - ?  (Read 3928 times)

chetbrz

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New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« on: October 05, 2013, 10:52:53 PM »
I tried installing the 19 Plymouth wood wheel on the front driver's side of my 29-U.  What appears to be happening is that the drum installs slightly further inboard which I believe is because the new wood spoke assembly may be just a hair larger then my old 20 wood wheels.  Looking at the pictures below it appears that the rubber dust seal is rubbing on the inside of the drum.  I guess I am not buying new tires just yet.  

Any advise ???



The picture below shows how far the cylinder sticks out past the brake shoe.


You can see the scrap marks below.  I even changed the drum with my old car drum.


Really wanted to buy tires at the Hershey Show on Friday I would expect a good show price.

Chet...    :'(
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 03:32:16 AM by chetbrz »
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SDGlenn

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2013, 12:04:24 AM »
Hey Chet, Still working on the ole girl hey?  What is original on the 29U? My 29 Coupe has the 20" wheels...   I notice the brake drums on mine are pretty squared, looking along the brake shoe surface to the surface that bolts to the wood spokes.  Maybe the Brake shoe surface on mine is a bit wider than the one you show a picture of. Maybe the brake cylinder is a bit too large?   ???
Glenn
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chetbrz

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2013, 01:40:47 AM »
Hey Chet, Still working on the ole girl hey?  What is original on the 29U? My 29 Coupe has the 20" wheels...   I notice the brake drums on mine are pretty squared, looking along the brake shoe surface to the surface that bolts to the wood spokes.  Maybe the Brake shoe surface on mine is a bit wider than the one you show a picture of. Maybe the brake cylinder is a bit too large?   ???
Glenn


Glenn,

The 20" wheels are the correct size but mine need to be respoked. (an easy $1,200+) So I decided to see if the 19" would work to save a couple of bucks.  The drums are the same because I took the drum off my 20" wheel and installed it on the 19" wheel and had the same problem.  1/16" stop washer on the axle would move the wheel out just enough or maybe new bearings. 

Does the brake cylinder look correct to you ?  I think it is a bit to large.  I will have to see if I kept the original parts when I fixed the brakes back in 2004.   I got them from Andy before he sold the business.  I think they are for a PA and he said they would work fine.

Chet...

Chet...
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chetbrz

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2013, 04:17:28 PM »
Chet I would just build out the drum/wheel with washers. We don't drive these things fast and furious enough to worry about it. If the shoes don't overhang the drum by any amount I don't see a problem. I would epoxy heavy washers at each bolt and install. Can't see any downside except slight change in front track. But that won't change alignment just max. steering circle I think. And the washers will be too close to center of mass to affect balance of wheel/tire assembly. This is what I would do. How fast can wheel speed be at 45 mph. on 19" wheels?

I think I have just the opposite problem.  The Drum is to far inboard.  In order to move it away from the cylinder I would have to put a 1/16 or 1/8" spacer between the axle rear bearing stop and the rear bearing.  This is the only way to move the drum away from the cylinder.  It doesn't have to move that much and there is plenty of room on the axle to accommodate the shift.  It turns forward OK but grabs the rubber in reverse motion.   I think a 1/16" spacer would do the trick.  Or maybe a new rear bearing ? What do you think ?  See picture below.



« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 03:27:03 AM by chetbrz »
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frankp

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2013, 07:31:12 PM »
Chet,

Short note.  I purchased new cylinders from Andy B many years ago to replace my pitted ones - exact same problem and had to return them.  Even though claimed to be for 1929, his cylinders' outside diameter were too large and rubbed on the drum.  The original cylinders were sleeved with stainless steel locally at almost the same cost as the new ones.  Also did the master cylinder.  You might want to look at this option also.

frank
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chetbrz

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2013, 09:57:58 PM »
Chet,

Short note.  I purchased new cylinders from Andy B many years ago to replace my pitted ones - exact same problem and had to return them.  Even though claimed to be for 1929, his cylinders' outside diameter were too large and rubbed on the drum.  The original cylinders were sleeved with stainless steel locally at almost the same cost as the new ones.  Also did the master cylinder.  You might want to look at this option also.

frank

Hay Frank,

Since I generally never throw anything away I might still have them.  It's finding them that's the problem.  If I can find a proper spacer I think that would do the trick in the meantime.

Ths,  Chet...
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imoore

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2013, 05:55:10 AM »
Hi chet
I have an original wheel cylinder if u want me to measure diameter.
Ian
1928 Q tourer (Holden bodied)
Several vintage stationary engine

chetbrz

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2013, 02:34:24 PM »
Hi chet
I have an original wheel cylinder if u want me to measure diameter.
Ian

Ian,

If that is easy for you to do it would be helpful.  I think the front wheels can be easily solved.  I am more worried about the rear, since there is no option for outward adjustment. 

Chet...
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frankp

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2013, 05:37:23 PM »
Chet,

I too was concerned about rear wheel.  What if a very thin sheet of brass were placed on axle?  This would enlarge circumference across the width of the shim and prevent wheel from its full inward travel.  Of course there is that pesky drive shaft key/slot to deal with.  Trying a little brain-storming here.

Believe you have correct path on front axle by using a washer on the shaft and then mounting wheel.

Re: wheel cylinder size.  I recall trying to check that cylinder fit flush against the brake support plate.  As far as I could tell, it did, but you might check to make sure the hole in the plate is large enough.  As you know, it won't take much to get the needed clearance.

Brother, I do understand about locating those "extra" parts!  Good luck.
frank
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chetbrz

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2013, 06:26:39 PM »
I think I mis-spoke or mis-typed. I envisioned the washer on the inside of the drum. In other words in that photo of the backside of the drum, it would have a washer at each bolt station. They would have to glued/epoxied in place. Am I still out in left field or would that not move the drum away from the wheel cylinder by the thickness of the washer? 

The rear bearing determines how far the wheel and drum will sit on the axle shaft.  The race for the rear bearing is inside the hub.  Works the same as the front bearing only the inner race sits against the axle rear flange.  Washers on the bolts that hold the drum to the wooden wheel will only move the drum closer to the cylinder not away from it.  If you consider the wood wheel and the brake drum as a single unit it might make more sense.  Thanks for the response.

Chet...
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chetbrz

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 06:42:26 PM »
Chet,

I too was concerned about rear wheel.  What if a very thin sheet of brass were placed on axle?  This would enlarge circumference across the width of the shim and prevent wheel from its full inward travel.  Of course there is that pesky drive shaft key/slot to deal with.  Trying a little brain-storming here.

Brother, I do understand about locating those "extra" parts!  Good luck.
frank

Thanks Frank but the taper of the axle shaft and hub are important to produce the necessary "Taper Lock" needed to insure that the hub doesn't slip on the axle.  Nice thought but there is no clean way to move the wheel drum outward on the rear axle.  If I have a problem in the rear I might need to find some old cylinders to rebuild or possibly a shim at the bearing to limit the axle shaft's inward travel.  I seem to remember doing some type of shim adjustment on my 48 Plymouth's rear axle for proper end play. ???

Chet... 
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SDGlenn

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2013, 07:53:53 PM »
Just a thought Chet.  Your pictures did not show this but....

1. Do your brake shoes "Center" in wheel cylinder?  or does it really have to center?
2. Could you remove the Cylinders and machine down the back side enough to get the clearance you need for the brake drum?  This could work on front or rear drums.
3. Is it only the dust shield that is rubbing on the drum?
Polish off a bit of rubber at the rub point?

Cheapest route verse best route? ?

Just my thought without seeing the items.

Good luck
SDGlenn
SDGlenn

chetbrz

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2013, 09:16:21 PM »
Hi Glenn,

All good suggestions.  I thought about machining the mounting portion of the cylinder. 

Yes,  It is only the rubber making contact with the inner surface of the drum.  Mostly with the wheel turning in reverse.  Actually the rubber dustcover is quite thick ?

I thought this might be a quick improvement but if I am going to get this involved I need to do a lot more to the old girl then change the wheels. I think I may let her sit until next summer when my 48 is finally completed, then start a complete restoration.

Chet...
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imoore

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 10:27:31 AM »
Hi chet.
The spare wheel cylinders i have are 42mm diameter. But it does go a little wider on the centre inline with the bleed nipple. Let me know if u want any other measurements.
Ian.   
1928 Q tourer (Holden bodied)
Several vintage stationary engine

chetbrz

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Re: New Wood Wheel problem - ?
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2013, 12:56:39 PM »

Thanks Ian,

I will check this over the weekend.

Chet...
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